Atif Z. Qadir 00:10
Welcome to American Building. I'm your host Atif Qadir. Join me as we explore the skylines and strip malls, the crosswalks and rail crossings, the balconies, the buildings and the boroughs shaping the next generation of real estate. Let's build common ground.
Atif Z. Qadir 00:29
Today’s guest is developer Tesho Akindele, of Camp North End in Charlotte, North Carolina. Tesho is a former pro soccer player who turned his competitive drive toward real estate and neighborhood-building after his Major League Soccer career. Camp North End is a major 20-acre redevelopment project in Charlotte. It is a sprawling, multi-building campus built on historic industrial fabric. The site combines production and maker spaces, restaurants and bars, creative office suites, event venues, and public plazas, woven into the original factory buildings. The project aims to be a place where people work, eat, build, and gather, and it intentionally blends commercial activity with cultural programming to keep the campus active day and night. It is being led by ATCO, a property development company based in New York City. Today we’ll talk about the evolution of Camp North End, and what success looks like when you’re reshaping a neighborhood. Thanks so much for being here, Tesho.
Tesho Akindele 01:45
Yeah, thanks so much for having me excited to get into the conversation.
Atif Z. Qadir 01:50
Absolutely. So you are currently a developer and a newly minted podcaster, and before we talk about that stuff, I want to want it back to where you started as a soccer player. Talk to us about that first part of your career in pro soccer, and what that period was like,
Tesho Akindele 02:06
Yeah, I'll leave it until, like, where it started for me as a soccer player, I got to give props to my dad, because my dad's Nigerian, actually, so as soon as I could walk, he had a soccer ball in front of me. My dad was my coach for most of my life. He, you know, he really pushed me to that next level. And I was going to school to be an electrical engineer, actually, and ended up leaving early because I got drafted to play Major League Soccer. So I got drafted to Dallas. I played in Dallas for five years, got traded to Orlando, another four years in Orlando, so had a great nine year career. Was able to play, obviously, all over the country, doing that, and then I also represented Canada, where I was born, and we would play with Canada, I got to, kind of travel the whole world. So just, you know, every kid's dream is to be a professional athlete. So the fact that I made it and was able to live that, I feel beyond lucky. The fact that it lasted nine years. Most careers are much shorter than that, I feel extremely lucky. It feels almost too good to be true. But, you know, it happened
Atif Z. Qadir 03:00
totally So let's dig into that a little bit more. So you started off college. You mentioned studying electrical engineering. That feels very familiar as the immigrant story. So totally appreciate that you were at SMU, correct? Is that right?
Tesho Akindele 03:14
So I went to the School of Mines for engineering, and then SNHU is where I got a degree. While I was playing soccer, there was an online kind of partnership between SNHU and MLS to allow players to get a degree. So my engineering, though, was at Colorado School of Mines.
Atif Z. Qadir 03:29
Oh, got it. That's in Golden, Colorado, right?
Tesho Akindele 03:32
Yeah, Golden, yep, yep.
Atif Z. Qadir 03:33
Oh, got it, yeah. My brother lived in Golden, so I've actually seen your campus. Very nice campus.
Tesho Akindele 03:36
It's pretty beautiful. Yeah, it's really nice.
Atif Z. Qadir 03:39
And okay, so you played for two different clubs within the MLS team format, and talk to us about those two experiences in terms of skill development, leadership development and understanding, perhaps the communities that you are playing in Dallas and Orlando.
Tesho Akindele 03:55
Yeah, that's that's a really interesting way to phrase to phrase that question. So I guess in terms of like skill development and leadership development, I think back to when I first got drafted. And, you know, any American player has this experience where you're the best player on your team. When you're 1011, 12, all the way through high school, through college, you're the best, you know. And I experienced that through my life. Used to being the best player on my team, star of the show kind of thing. Then I got drafted to Dallas, and all of a sudden I'm the worst player on my team, you know. And it's just a big shock to the system, like you go and you realize, man, this is a completely different level. And who you're competing with is not people from, you know, my neighborhood in Colorado or kind of the region like I did in college, but it's people from all around the world, like I had, teammates from Europe, from South America, from all over the place, from all over the country, and so that shock to the system of being the worst player was hard to swallow, but at that moment, you got to look yourself in the mirror and say, you know, how bad do you want it? So I really was able to dig deep. You know, you're kind of practicing to the side of the main squad that's playing every week, but you just need to keep grinding. Stay ready. Make sure your skills are sharp, make sure your attitude is ositive, and then eventually you do get an opportunity, is what I learned.
Tesho Akindele 05:04
And so, you know, my opportunity came through. Our team was doing really well. My first year, I didn't play at all, not a single minute for the first six months. And then our best player actually got a kind of a season ending injury, which was, you know, terrible for him. But what happened is, then we changed the formation, so I went from not playing a single second to all of a sudden, I was starting games, and I played every single game the rest of the season, and was able to win Rookie of the Year that year in MLS. It's a good lesson on just like determination when when the spotlight's not on you, and I think just staying ready, because I saw other people who were kind of in the same situation as me, young guys not playing, and when their moment came, whether it was by injury or by change of tactics, some of them weren't ready, you know, and the coach says, all right, you're not up to this level, and you might not get another chance. I feel really lucky that I was able to find it within myself to stay focused in that period.
Tesho Akindele 05:56
And then just transferring. So my first five years were in Orlando, and I was always seen as, like, the young guy, you know, rookie of the year, or, sorry, in Dallas. That was kind of my perception of the club in the city. And then when I moved to Orlando, I had been in the league for five years, and I came into that as more of like, okay, this is a veteran in the league. And so my role on the team changed a lot, and I just kind of immediately took a leadership role. When I was in Orlando, it was good to see that where I'm not the young guy anymore. You know, I have some experience. I can kind of coach and mentor the other guys. I've been in the league long enough that they that they actually listen to what I have to say. So was able to see the league from the point of view of a guy trying to break in, and also someone who's been around the block.
Atif Z. Qadir 06:38
Amazing. So then, when you were in Dallas, you gained a good amount of recognition because of the way that you performed for the team. Did that translate to time that you spent out understanding Dallas, the way the city is built, the city is organized? Or did you have like, a laser focus on practice and performance on the team?
Tesho Akindele 06:57
Yeah, one of my biggest regrets is I had too much of a laser focus on, like, just soccer. So it's interesting, most people were to think of this, but in my experience, athletes kind of live very small lives, in some ways, because the like, when I was in Dallas, I was there for five years, essentially the only people I talked to were other professional soccer players. You know, I didn't really spend time with people who were not soccer players or the family of soccer players, the bubble was extremely small, and part of that is because you don't know if you're going to be traded or or leave, and so people are reluctant to put roots down, and you also don't know what people are trying to get out of you sometimes, if you're interacting with with strangers. So I was very reluctant to put roots down, kept my focus on soccer. My life was kind of small when I went to Orlando. Luckily, I did kind of broaden my horizons, start thinking more about like my engagement with the broader community, put down roots a little bit. I mean, just kind of meeting people and talking to and spending time with people who were not necessarily soccer players. And that would be a big recommendation I'd have to other athletes is, you know, don't wait five years to do that. You know, get out, spread your wings, and try to see a little bit of the world.
Atif Z. Qadir 08:02
So then you continued on to Orlando, and your experience there was different. And that's where you, I think, started thinking a bit bigger about the platform that you have as an athlete and how you want to advance something that's meaningful to you. And I think that was housing for you. So I saw a photograph of you sporting really great t shirt, talking about housing. So tell me about where that mindset came in and how you chose to use that platform.
Tesho Akindele 08:28
Okay, that's, this is a really good story. So what happened was, you know, a couple years before I retired, I realized I'm gonna have to retire from soccer series. I, you know, I could see the writing on the wall. I'm getting slower. The young guys are faster every single year. So it's like, all right, I need to figure out what to do with my life. And I had a realization that I had been using social media in a very traditional way that other athletes do, just posting Game Day today or pictures of myself playing the sport. And people knew me and I had a following, but they only knew this one aspect of me as an athlete, and they didn't know other things I was interested in. So I started kind of expressing myself more, talking about, like you said, housing, affordable housing, talking about personal finance, the environment, etc, lots of things I was interested in. Through that, was able to meet a group in Orlando called Orlando YIMBY, and their group is really advocating for more housing in great neighborhoods, you know, the places where we already have schools and parks and public infrastructure. I thought that was an amazing message. So the way that they frame it is legalize housing. They have this slogan that the yimby group, and so we were going to the finals of a tournament, actually, with Orlando is called the US Open Cup. We were playing the finals at home.
Tesho Akindele 09:39
And so a lot of guys are using that moment to show off their Louis Vuitton or their newest cool outfit. I wore this legalized housing t shirt, and after the game, we won the tournament the first time Orlando had ever won at the top level. And I posted the shirt the picture, and just kind of a rundown of why it's important to build housing. And, you know, infill housing in great neighborhoods. And that really, just that moment, was a turning point in my life, that it kind of propelled me from just being seen as an athlete to people really seeing me as I frame it, as like an athlete, urbanist, kind of like somebody who was an athlete, but also, like I had this city building interest and, you know, advocacy to me, and I got a lot of followers from, like, professional people at that point, people who were developers, urban planners, architects, et cetera, who were in this space because they're like, Who is this guy, you know, professional soccer player, wearing, like, our very jargony t shirt. And that was a really great moment of my life.
Atif Z. Qadir 10:36
So you mentioned an organization that, and its name is YIMBY, that's yes, in my backyard, and in contrast to not in my backyard, NIMBY, which is much more common in the Northeast United States. So I love the fact that you used a platform that you had built through one area of expertise to then start and then deepen your knowledge and then share your opinions, your thoughts and beliefs in that second area, which is around housing. So I think that professional sports is really fascinating from that regard. But also I'm curious about the observations that you had started making about, say, the real estate around stadiums, and how housing is or is not integrated, or other uses are, is or not integrated around around stadiums and athletic facilities. And if that was one of the triggers for you to get get thinking about what you wanted to do next.
Tesho Akindele 11:29
Yeah. So actually, when I was at Orlando, our team got bought by the Will family, their family that's made money in real estate, and that's a trend that's happening across sports everywhere right now, like a lot of people, are buying sports teams with like, the specific goal of activating the stadium as an entertainment district. So whereas, historically, especially in the US, stadiums are kind of in the middle of a parking lot out in the middle of nowhere, that's changing now, and you're seeing that. You know, Orlando Stadium is actually right in the middle of the city, but there wasn't too much built up around it, other than single family housing, the opportunity to create, like an entertainment district where the game is and the team is the hub of the neighborhood. But you could also have more dense housing around it. You can have, you know, food and restaurants to get before and after the game. You could have parks for people to hang out and play at. I think you'll you'll start to see a little bit more of that in Orlando, but across the country, you're seeing it all over because it just makes sense. You know, sports are a thing that really pull people together. It is like an anchor that cuts across all kinds of different lines that we usually divide ourselves on. Is the great uniter. You know, if you're in Orlando, you love it. If you're in the Northeast or in Philly, you love the Eagles. And so being able to connect with people around that shared passion is important.
Atif Z. Qadir 12:43
That's amazing. I think sports definitely has a long history in diplomacy, from the ping pong matches between the United States and Communist China at that point. So I think that's that's a really neat thing to tap into. And, of course, the activation of physical space around stadium so super interesting. Okay, so you're a player, and then at some point you become a developer. How did that transition happen?
Tesho Akindele 13:05
So I went back to old faithful. I went back to social media. So I was looking I knew I was going to move to Charlotte because we were moving from my wife's job. And so I said, All right, who are the people in Charlotte who are developers? But I had a specific passion for building walkable neighborhoods. I wanted to build infill development, and, you know, something that I could be proud of working on and proud of when it's done. Just saying, you know, I was a part of this. And so I saw a couple groups in Charlotte doing those, and one of them was Atco, like you mentioned at the beginning, and the project camp north end, I said, All right, how do I get in touch with someone at ATCO? And I found Damon Hemmerdinger, the president of echo. He was on Twitter, actually, so I just, I sent him a cold DM, and I, you know, I told him my story. I said, Hey, Damon. I’m a professional soccer player about to retire and move to Charlotte. I want to be a developer. Would love to talk to you. And so luckily, he responded, you know, and one thing led to another. We had a few conversations. I met him. I met some of the other people on the team, and he gave me an amazing opportunity, just honestly at the beginning, just to shadow him, because I got a degree in Finance while I was playing, but I had no real world experience with this stuff, so he really just gave me a blessing of an opportunity shadow him, learn the industry, and here we are about three years later, still enjoying my time working At Camp North End and building a walkable neighborhood, which is actually what we're doing.
Atif Z. Qadir 14:24
So that's a really good transition into the focus for the project we want to talk about, which is Camp North End. And right before we dive in, talk me a little bit about the things that you learned in that role, that the first role that you took with ATCO say, like the first, first 100 Days CEO style. What were the things that you really learned and absorbed that made you decide to want to stay there versus doing 100 other amazing things you could be doing as a former athlete?
Tesho Akindele 14:53
Yeah, so when I told, when I told Damon, I said, Hey, I want to be a developer. He's like, What do you want to do in development? Do. And I had no idea, because I, you know, like, I knew I wanted to be, like, a part of making buildings come to life, but I really didn't know what that meant day to day. And so Damon, you know, through conversation with him, broke it down. Now, the way I see development is there's kind of three buckets, in my opinion. So there's like the project management bucket, which is just, you're getting the engineers and the city and the contractor and the landscaper, everybody, kind of together, pointed in the direction of building, that building that is, you know, the developer's vision. So there's the project management bucket. Then there's the second bucket, financial analysis, which is managing the budget. So you got to do the pro forma before the building is is built. You got to manage the budget during the process, et cetera. And then the third bucket, which is extremely important, and kind of the fuel for everything, is raising money. So you got to talk to investors, talk to banks, et cetera, because without money, you can have the best plans and best team in the world and nothing will get done. So really honestly, just that basic understanding of the jobs that are available, kind of within development and the skill sets required was really helpful to learn from Damon. At a smaller shop like where I'm at, we have a small team, so you end up working kind of across all three buckets, whereas, you know, at some bigger shops, you might be more siloed to you might just be in capital raising, just in financial analysis, or just in project management, for example. So I've been lucky to get exposure to all three of those buckets in just a short period of time.
Atif Z. Qadir 16:24
Excellent. Okay, so you started out in the early role that you had was Chief of Staff. Is that correct?
Tesho Akindele 16:30
Yeah, pretty much they labeled it like that. But honestly, I was just, I was just following David around. I wasn't helping too much.
Atif Z. Qadir 16:36
You're hanging a sidecar.
Tesho Akindele 16:38
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, literally, I was just in his zoom calls. Like I would be in zoom calls just listening, not really saying anything. And he would, he would spend time talking to me afterwards. I'd ask him, like, why did you make this or that decision? Why did you hold the line on this specific design detail and let another design detail go? And so he gave me a lot of time to really explore my interest and just see what he's doing day to day.
Atif Z. Qadir 17:01
Okay, so you have now been with Camp North End. You said three years. Is that correct?
Tesho Akindele 17:06
Yep.
Atif Z. Qadir 17:06
Okay, so give us the big picture on Camp north end. So programs, square footages, phasing, ute, mix like, what is the thing? Tell us that, yeah.
Tesho Akindele 17:17
So Camp North End in 2017 when Damon bought the project. It's a 76 acre parcel, one mile north of downtown Charlotte, and the site was all these industrial buildings. The first one was built in the 1920s and then the rest were built by the army in the 40s. So he bought this big industrial site surrounded by barbed wire, and what he did, slowly, is he took down the barbed wire and started redeveloping those old buildings. The first phase was really just place making it's we were bringing out live music, food trucks, doing art in front of people. Then we started. We developed a small building that was like a microcosm of a neighborhood, really. So a 17,000 square foot building broke into bays, and there was a coffee shop and a bar, an architecture studio, artist space, and then after that, that was enough to raise money to go to the grander vision.
Tesho Akindele 18:06
So right now, what we have at Camp north end, we're about, I want to say, a quarter of the way through the whole vision. But if you come to camp North End today, you'll see 400,000 square feet of office space. You'll see about 75,000 square feet of retail space, and you'll see 300 apartments. So we have, really, that live work play is all here at Camp north end. And then we have a robust events program too. And so pretty much every day of the week there's lots of events going on. We have a farmer's market on Wednesdays. We have free outdoor movies on Thursdays. We have live music on Fridays, festivals most weekends. It's really kind of creating a fun place to be at, essentially. And the way I like to think of it is a neighborhood. Lots of people come here and they see this, you know, scattered buildings all over that are being revived, and they're like, is this an outdoor mall, or is this like a compound? Or how to frame it? I think it's just a neighborhood is the best way to explain it. We're really building a full neighborhood, right? Kind of in the heart of Charlotte, and it's been exciting to see that happen. You don't often get the opportunity to work on such a comprehensive development, especially when it's an infill project.
Atif Z. Qadir 19:11
Absolutely amazing. So tell us a bit about the name camp north end. And you had mentioned that it was a group of old industrial buildings a little bit further from the downtown, like, what was it before it became a redevelopment project?
Tesho Akindele 19:25
So in 1924 the first building was it's called the Ford building. That's what we call it. It was a 260,000 square foot manufacturing facility for Ford Motors, and they were manufacturing Model Ts and model As. And so they did that, closed it down during the Great Depression. And then the army came in, and they built about 1.5 million square feet of warehouse space, industrial space. And the army was doing some manufacturing. They're manufacturing these vehicles called gamma goats, and also like missiles, Nike and Hercules missiles. And then they were also using the site as a distribution hub. So there's like, rail tracks that come in and out of our site, and the army was actively using those to bring supplies and bring, like missiles from here to across the country.
Tesho Akindele 20:10
Then eventually the site got bought by Rite Aid and was just kind of used as, like, crappy industrial space for distribution for Rite Aid, until, you know, we took it over and got it, and now we're redeveloping it. And so like I said, right now, we have no I said, we have 300 units of apartment space, a lot of office and retail. In the end of the day camp North End will have 2000 apartments and about 2 million square feet of office and retail. So we've come a long way, but there's still a lot more that we can do to revitalize this really historic place here in Charlotte.
Atif Z. Qadir 20:41
So what you're describing is a multi phase project, as you said right now, 300 apartments will increase to 2000 apartments. That's significant for a city of Charlotte size. When you guys arrived and took control of this site from, presumably, from Rite Aid, or, like, a holding company for Rite Aid. Like, what did it look like? Was it just, like, trucks everywhere, or like things stored? Like, what did it actually look like?
Tesho Akindele 21:07
Yeah, it was essentially trucks everywhere, just pavement, you know, not, not a tree in sight, barbed wire fence literally around the entire site, where you'd have to, like, have a key to get into the area.
Atif Z. Qadir 21:19
And this is, this is bonkers. Just one mile from Charlotte's downtown.
Tesho Akindele 21:22
Yeah, one mile like, literally the best view of the skyline, because you're kind of perched a little bit above the city in some places, so, you know, one mile away, and this was just completely overlooked. So, yeah, we we bought it, and that's what it looked like. And then you come today, and, like I said, there was no trees back then. If you come today, it's like being in an urban forest. You know, we really amped up the landscaping. A lot of the buildings looked and felt and were dilapidated. And instead of just tearing those down, we've, we've been able to revitalize those buildings, which is special in a city like Charlotte, that if you come to Charlotte, it's a very new looking city. It's clean, new glass, big, tall buildings everywhere. So I think the people of Charlotte were yearning for a place that kind of kept the history and didn't just tear down some of the older buildings.
Atif Z. Qadir 22:08
A site like you just described will likely have issues below the surface. So contamination, remediation requirements, what did that look like for such a large, sprawling industrial site?
Tesho Akindele 22:22
So the whole site is a brownfield site, but luckily, in terms of remediation, there hasn't been too much to do. One of the buildings that we redeveloped, we had to kind of raise the floor and add it's called, like a cupolax system. It's like an air filtration system, but relatively minor for what I guess you could have undertaken on such a site with such a long history of manufacturing. But as we move forward, you know, the Army is actually out here, every once in a while testing the soil. As you move forward, we need to keep that in mind. One thing that's interesting about a brownfield site is moving dirt off site is extremely expensive, but if you can shift dirt around on site, it's not as expensive. So in some of our redevelopment efforts, we're actually shifting like we need to excavate dirt to build our next multifamily building. And instead of shipping it off somewhere else and paying a lot, we're actually moving it to a different part of the site, kind of leveling things out. So we've been able to find ways it's like a cost savings, because we're not shipping dirt out and getting new dirt, especially when it's brownfield dirt. And so you know, being creative on that and looking at how you can play the hand that you're dealt, in some sense.
Atif Z. Qadir 23:24
Okay, so that you had some issues, but they weren't grand issues when it comes to the below the ground stuff. In terms of other site issues, talk to me about the I'm sure there's a long list of things that you had to consider before going down the plan of redevelopment. What other things were the to dos or the fixes?
Tesho Akindele 23:42
Yeah. So I guess the very first thing is the site was zoned industrial. So this is before I joined the group, but the site was zoned industrial, and it was seen as such. Damon and the team went before city council and got it rezoned to it's called like UMUD zoning and mixed use zoning, basically. And it's really, really flexible and friendly. I think the only area outside of like the city center, that got that zoning initially was us. That was a great move from the city to just say this we see as a key revitalizing. This parcel of land right here, this 76 acres, one mile from Uptown, is a key part of Charlotte's development. And so their rezoning was a reflection of that. So got that rezoning that allowed us to be creative, to build office, retail and multifamily space.
Tesho Akindele 24:26
And then another interesting thing is there's a rail track that runs right through the middle of our site. It was owned by Norfolk Southern at the time. And if anybody's out here in the real estate world and has dealt with the train companies, you know, they, they're the boss, you know, like you can't, you can't touch their stuff. So we wanted to pave over their tracks to make a road. They really wouldn't let us do that, so we had gravel to get across their tracks, even though it's in the middle of our site. And what happened, though, is Norfolk Southern ended up selling their easement to the city of Charlotte, and the city of Charlotte is hoping to turn that abandoned rail line into a commuter train. So there's actually a sales tax referendum coming up by the time this is out. It's probably already either passed or failed here in Charlotte, but that would raise enough money for us to build there'd be a train built from Uptown Charlotte to some of the suburbs about 20 miles north, and, you know, a stop right in the middle of our site. So bringing trains right into the middle of the site. Active transit trains would be a really great thing. It's funny, because that turned from a real problem where we're dealing from with Norfolk Southern, who wouldn't let us touch their easement or pave over it, to now the city is the partner. They've been much more flexible in using that easement, and then hopefully they're going to activate it themselves with an actual train.
Atif Z. Qadir 25:39
Amazing. So the referendum is most likely next that's Tuesday, November, 4 from a fourth. So hopefully when this episode is out in November, we'll be able to celebrate, celebrate and congratulate you guys. So transportation's a big problem, I'm sure, for major industrial strikes, as you described. And that's a fascinating one, that that that was a very creative solution to come up with. And I guess definitely you were able to get the city as an ally in order to then even have that referendum on the ballot on Tuesday. So whatever happens for that, congratulations, or at least be able to get that piece together, which is great.
Tesho Akindele 26:15
Yeah, the city has been really supportive the city and like the surrounding community where we are. You know, a lot of times developers and developments get pushback from the community because, you know, for a variety of issues, but where we are, it was actually seen as it's been received extremely positively for a few reasons. So one is, we're in the middle of kind of eight or so single family neighborhoods, and this was a site like I said, that had a barbed wire fence around it. So if I lived on one side and my grandma lived on the other side, I couldn't get through. I had to go all the way around this huge site. And so just taking down the barbed wire fence and allowing the public to pass through was huge. And then, obviously, we redeveloped it. We made the buildings look better. So even people who live there but never come to Camp North End, their commute looks better every single day. You know, there's more trees in their life. There's windows where before they were staring at these big metal buildings that didn't look nice. And then, you know, bringing amenities like coffee shops has been great, plant shops, etc, and also the free events, so you can come into Camp North End and you can have an experience for free, like watch an outdoor movie. You can for free, listen to live music, or for free, you know, just spend time lounging in our public space, our free public Wi Fi, or you can have a $5 experience and get a cup of coffee, or a $30 experience and get a dinner. You know, you can kind of have whatever experience you want, depending on, you know, what you and your family are looking for. So I think the community has really welcomed that, you know, there's, there's something for everybody if you come to Camp North End.
Atif Z. Qadir 27:40
That's amazing. And I want to now connect to the topic that we started with, not your amazing soccer skills, I was also busy, but air interest in housing. So housing, as you mentioned, is weaved into the fabric of the early phases of this project and the later phases. So talk to me about what the original ideas were for integrating housing into this project, and things that you saw change, grow, or things that you advocated for as a key team member in the ideation process.
Tesho Akindele 28:14
Yeah, so a lot of, like, the first phase of housing was planned before I got there, since I've been here for three years. But just, you know, talking to the team about their thinking, a very common trope, I guess, in real estate, is retail follows rooftops, so first comes the housing, and then comes the retail. We did it backwards here. So we had, for years, we had retail and office space before we built the housing. The reason for that, for going kind of against the grain, is this was a place that literally nobody went before, you know, there was a barbed wire fence, so nobody came here. It wasn't a place people could see themselves living. And so we had to convince people that this, you know, industrial site, is a place you'd want to live. We did that with the retail so bringing the coffee shops here, we did that with the events, you know, bringing the live music here. We did that with the office space. And so people got accustomed to just going to camp north end, you know, for from 2017 all the way through 2023 no one lives at Camp north end, but hundreds of 1000s of people visited. And so by the time we convinced people it was, you know, a worthy place to live, then we developed, developed our first apartment building. And so the next phase is really going to be leaning into that developing more apartments, because now we've, we've convinced people it's a place worth living. Our first building is leasing that pretty well, and so we're just going to keep you know, capturing that momentum and bringing more more people here to this neighborhood center.
Atif Z. Qadir 29:39
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Atif Z. Qadir 30:37
Okay, and you mentioned the t shirt that you had on during that special tournament in Orlando when you were a player, it said legalized housing, which feels very, surely, very, very jargony, but I think the concept of it's very telling. Could you talk about what that term meant to you? And I want to connect that to this project after that.
Tesho Akindele 30:57
Yeah. So that term specifically means, like in most cities, if you look at the zoning, something like between 75 and 90% of the land is zoned for single family housing only, which is the most expensive housing type. So lots of people love to live in single family houses, but to make it the law that that's the only house type that's legal is like saying the only car you can drive in the city is a Mercedes Benz. You know, like, of course, I'd like to drive a Mercedes Benz, but it shouldn't be illegal to drive something else.
Atif Z. Qadir 31:23
So that's, that's great for those of us that prefer just driving Benzes. That's perfect.
Tesho Akindele 31:28
Yeah. So yeah, yeah. For the rest of the world, you know, it makes sense to let people have other options. And so that's what legalized housing means, is, hey, why don't we look at our land use? And instead of saying the only thing that's allowed is a single family house. Let's allow single family houses, but let's also allow duplexes and maybe some small multi family buildings where it makes sense. And so just doing that is such an unlock and like, I like to use that metaphor. It's the same thing as saying, instead of saying just Mercedes Benz can drive in Charlotte, let's say that Mercedes and whatever, Audis, Toyotas, Hyundai, like, they can all drive in the city. You know, it's the same thing with housing. Give people options that fit, fit their price point, and that's the way to, you know, it's really just an issue of, if I'm a young person trying to find a place to live in the city, and the only thing available is large single family houses, I'm priced out. Or if I'm an old person, I'm looking to downsize, only thing that's available is large single family houses. I have no option. So just giving people different phases and stages of their lives, the option to live in your city is extremely important.
Atif Z. Qadir 32:27
What I love about what you described Tesho is this idea that what we provide is a mechanism or a variable that can change in order to address people's ability to pay or the type of housing that they want at a different stage in life, versus, say, a previous generation of politicians and policymakers who felt that it was that is fixed, but rather give people money to be able to do certain things or have certain choices with their housing. For example, the National section eight housing voucher program or the Low Income Housing Tax Credit Program, where requirements for affordability ride with the deed to the property, which are extremely heavy handed methods to be able to allow people to get housing that they want. And I'm curious, given that they'll be a new mayor in the largest city in New York, New York City, Zohran Mamdani, who has a laser focus on affordability, he feels very reflective of a newer generation of developers and a newer generation of politicians who I think approach that problem from a supply side perspective as opposed to a demand side. So could you talk a little bit about your thoughts on that duality or that potential change in past ways of approaching housing?
Tesho Akindele 33:44
Yeah, I think it's interesting, because in kind of common society, developers are seen as the bad guys a lot of times, you know?
Atif Z. Qadir 33:50
Oh really? Tell me more.
Tesho Akindele 33:51
Yeah. And so, like, part of what I'm trying to do is put a friendly face on development and say, like, here I am in Charlotte. I live about five minutes away driving from this project. I ride my bike most days because it's so close. I have a family. I have a wife. I have two children. My kids go to public school in Charlotte. So part of just what I'm trying to say is, look, first of all, developers are normal people for the for the most part, you know, you have good ones, bad ones, but for the most part, in my experience, lots of really good people trying to do good things, and in the same way that we don't demonize farmers who are food providers. It seems a little bit strange to demonize developers who are housing providers. So I think looking at who are the housing providers in our cities, and you know, if we're facing the housing shortage, we need to talk to the housing providers and come to a plan for how do we address this shortage in the same way that if apples were priced at a million dollars, we would say, You know what, maybe we should grow some more apples. Grow some more apples so that we can, you know, supply, demand. It's simple. Same thing with housing. If housing is extremely overpriced, the best way to address that problem is to build more housing, and, you know, just increase the supply to try to meet that demand the best you can.
Atif Z. Qadir 34:56
Okay, so I love it. Those are really great analogies. And for. Listeners that have their own say, local municipalities that are not interested in playing ball with housing variety, housing affordability. Those are some awesome metaphors to borrow from Tesho. So talking about the variety of housing that you have and are planning to offer in camp north end, and which perhaps path the supply side, demand side, maybe both, how you guys are approaching the financing of it as well, because that's a key part of this whole conversation.
Tesho Akindele 35:26
I guess, let me start with the financing. Actually, our entire site is in an opportunity zone. And so the way that we're financing individual projects is we sell one parcel off to like a special purpose vehicle that then raises opportunity zone money so far, and so like our apartments, our kinship apartments, we owned the land. We sold that land to a new group that was us as the developer and then investors with opportunity zone money and financed the project on our site, within the 76 acres. Kind of the highest and best use of our zoning and of our proximity to the city center. Basically has been we've decided, you know, multi family buildings, your traditional five over one, and so that's what we're going to build, mostly, is those traditional kind of five, six story multi family buildings to try to provide some some diversity in in unit types. Here we obviously have the traditional studios, one bedrooms, two bedrooms that all houses have, or All apartments have. We've also kind of stepped outside of the box in in two unique areas. So one of them is we built these live work units on the ground floor of one of our buildings. So the front half is, kind of, you walk in and it's, it's a open space to do work.
Tesho Akindele 36:38
So you can have a salon, you can we have a massage studio in one of them. We have a woman's clothing shop. We have a hat store, nail place, and so the front of it is a room for a business. Then there's a barn door separating the back, which is where you live, so there's a bedroom, a kitchen and a bathroom back there. So that has encouraged entrepreneurs who are excited to start a new business, maybe, but don't have the money for housing rent and for retail rent, they can combine them and launch a new business. So those live work units have been extremely in demand. We actually pre leased all of them before the building was even done. We also built a unit type that we're calling shared suites. And so what those are is you go into the door and there's kind of four furnished bedrooms. And if I live in one, and you live in one, I go into my bedroom, I lock it behind me. I have my own bedroom, my bathroom, my closet, fully furnished, and then we have a shared kitchen and living room. And so those rent for, let's say, about $1,000 a month. It's our cheapest unit per person. And so that gives somebody who's really on a budget, or, you know, maybe moving to the area, or just graduated school or or even a senior who's just looking to downsize. It gives them a really affordable way to live in in the middle of Camp North End, which is, you know, an exciting city center. So I think you'd be hard pressed to find $1,000 anywhere else in the city of Charlotte that you can live, especially fully furnished. And now we're offering that here.
Atif Z. Qadir 37:58
And I think what is so interesting about what you're describing is the ideas aren't like out of thin air. There's precedent for them. There's the idea of live work units have been around since the medieval period, and the idea of shared suites. It's the American college experience since World War One. I love that you're using precedents that already exist without having to try to reinvent the wheel. And now you mentioned opportunity zones. So for folks that may not be where opportunities opportunity zones are relatively new tax advantage program that allows for the use of capital gains taxes that otherwise would have been paid to the federal government to be invested in real estate in particular locations defined by census tracts, like the one that is where Camp North End is located. And for anyone that's interested in finding out more about that, I did a talk about that at the Yale real estate conference recently. So in the show notes, I'll include a link to my notion page, which gives you the deck and all the information I put together for for that talk recently, so feel free to use that so talk to us a little bit more about the financing of say, with the opportunity zone as the foundation of the capital stack that your team built to finance this multi phase project.
Tesho Akindele 39:16
Yeah, so opportunity zones have really been one of the most successful tax incentive programs that I've seen for real estate. So the goal was to incentivize development in areas that had been previously overlooked by developers. And so it's you see it here in Charlotte, but I'm sure you go to any city and areas that were designated as opportunity zones really did see a lot of investment that they wouldn't have otherwise. And so with us here. It's not really going to take your project from being like completely impossible to now possible, but it does move the needle. And so we've been able to partner, like I said, with opportunity zone funds, who they're raising money from individuals who, you know, maybe you had Apple stock and you did amazing, or Nvidia, let's say you had Nvidia stock and Nvidia's gone crazy. You decide to sell it, take some chips off the table. Instead of paying your taxes right away. You might decide to invest in an opportunity zone fund, or directly into an opportunity zone a project, and you kind of defer those capital gains and see some, see some other tax advantages along the way. So being able to offer that as an additional incentive, you know, our deals can make sense as just a regular investor, even if you don't have an opportunity zone money, but if you do have a capital gain, it's just kind of a little cherry on top for people to incentivize them to actually invest in this real estate.
Tesho Akindele 40:32
One more thing that's interesting about the Opportunity Zone Program, people should go listen to your talk, because I'm sure you say this, but the requirement is to hold the projects for 10 years to get the full benefits. And so it encourages from developers like ourselves, long term thinking. A lot of developers are kind of coined as merchant builders. Where the business model is, you know, we get the land, we build something as fast as we can, we lease it up, maybe, and then we sell it as fast as we can, and we're on to the next one, which, you know, that's, that's, it's a fine business model. The opportunity zone says, you get the land, you build it as fast as you can, you lease up as fast as you can, and then you hold it for 10 years. So when you know you're going to own this building for 10 years, you're making different design choices. You know, you think you're thinking long term. I don't care that the floor is just good year one and year two. I care that the floor is good in year 10. I don't care that the you know, like, do you care that the sound between the units is, is it going to be soundproof or not? Like, if you're going to hold it for 10 years, you do care that the tenant feedback is, oh, actually, I don't hear my neighbors as much. So you're making, I think, good design choices because you're forced into this long term hold.
Atif Z. Qadir 41:33
Yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense. And two things I want to touch on in what you said in your description, Tesho, is the idea that this program similar to the other national tax advantage programs that are meant for real estates, that would be in terms of size, smallest to largest. It's low income housing tax credits, new market tax credits and historic tax credits and operating zone, although it's not a tax credit, it fits into that that kind of sector of different tax credit type programs is that the fact that you have a long term perspective on a project as a neighborhood builder is perfectly aligned with that, as opposed to buying, say, a fully entitled site building a pretty cookie cutter vanilla multifamily and trying to sell it to a pension fund right after, which is a very different business model. So the model. So the type of work that you're doing is very well aligned with opportunity zones. And also the fact that you're likely buying industrial property at a low basis means the ability to create value through the entitlement process and then build on top of it means you can meet the thresholds necessary for addition of investment onto the site as a multiple of the land only value of the property. So it seems very aligned with the type of work that you and other place making developers are doing. Obviously huge project from the physical perspective, from the political from the legal perspective, from the financing perspective. Talk to me about the ecosystem of partners that you and the team at ATCO have built in order to be able to literally just get out of the gates and do the project, and then also make it that type of place that you want it to be So cohesive, bringing people together, community oriented, yeah.
Tesho Akindele 43:22
So I guess I'll think of that in two ways. So first is like, how do we build out our own team internally? So actually, the first hire at Camp North End was, she's called the Community Manager. Her name is Varian. She was the person who is pulling the community in and kind of telling them what we're doing. So she was organizing the events, she was doing the social media. She was having the food trucks come out. She was finding the artists. So community manager is really important person. Another unique staff member we have here. His name is Alex, and he, his job is Placemaker. And so he initially was in charge of all the public outdoor space at Camp north end. So think landscaping, music, the seating, the colors of the walls, etc. And he, you know, he's grown that role as we build our apartments to looking at some of the interior spaces as well. So, you know, you had the community manager, placemaker.
Tesho Akindele 44:05
Now we have a more like an events team, an events and marketing team who has pushed our social media following over 100,000 just on Instagram alone. Our events have brought over 1.1 million people in the last 12 months to the site. So that's been very impressive. And then we have kind of my side of the room, which is development, construction, project management. And so there's, there's a few of us here that are doing everything from base building work on the old buildings, like asbestos remediation, to building out the apartments, and then to even, like, we have office space here, and while our office tenants do their build outs, we have someone on the team who kind of walks with them through that process and make sure that their build out is is as smooth as possible.
Tesho Akindele 44:47
And then with more partners. You know, what people don't think about is just the how intense it is actually to run a project like this, like on a neighborhood scale, and so, like a full team of landscapers, for example, a full cleaning staff, a full security staff like 24/7 security out here to make sure that when people come here, they feel blanketed in safety. Those types of people have been just completely instrumental. And, you know, we actually have a property management team here on site too, so just making sure that the thing runs smoothly, like it's not only about building something beautiful and then all right, we did our work. Every day like you need to make sure the trash is picked up. You need to make sure that people feel safe. You need to make sure that the landscape, that the landscape isn't just all dying and it's watered and it's healthy. So our team has been really important. And then now outside, just making sure that we're working with the right architects, the right contractors, the right landscapers, who have kind of that, you know, the same long term view as us, and not trying to just build something that's like cookie cutter, but trying to build something that feels and looks and operates, you know, special.
Atif Z. Qadir 45:52
Amazing. I really appreciate that you talked about that internal team of folks, because that is necessary to be able to effectuate a large project like that. And I really want to hear about the team that you have assembled to work alongside your company as well. Talk to me about the team of consultants, companies, collaborators that you've built on the exterior side of this project, to get this, get the project going.
Tesho Akindele 46:22
I think one of the, one of the most important pieces is the landscape architect, actually, and so we worked with like land design and NBW have been two of our consultants there, and just seeing the vision that we're not trying to have just typical office park landscaping, where there's a tree in the middle of a circle of mulch, and then every year you cut it back to zero. We're going for what we call a wild landscape. And so we're trying to cover the ground in plants, and we're trying to have different sides, and they feel really full. And if a seed comes from this planter box over here and falls into that one and starts growing a new plant, that's fine. We don't need to shave it back to zero. So they've been instrumental.
Tesho Akindele 47:00
And then we worked with a variety of contractors on our base building, and our tenant fit outs. I think one thing working with them that's important is we really focus on keeping the character. So they kind of have gone above and beyond with us all the time to make sure we're showing off all of the architectural elements that were already existing in the spaces. So these super high ceilings with, you know, wood, these wood ceilings that are super high. And instead of just taking those out and replacing them with new ones, we took them out, cleaned them, blasted them, and, you know, left, left them there in the ceiling. So going above and beyond to kind of like, keep the character where you can has been really good to see with, with all the contractors we worked with.
Atif Z. Qadir 47:39
Amazing. So the multi phase nature of this means that the project itself is going to evolve over time. So fast forward. I think you said earlier the entire project is about 10 years. Is that correct?
Tesho Akindele 47:53
Give or take. Like I said, it's always with raising money. So however much fuel we can get in the tank is how fast we can go.
Atif Z. Qadir 47:59
Given the economic cycles and how low interest rates go. There was another rate drop last week. So I would say, at that point, when the project is fully built out and the original intent has been realized, walk our listeners through what you hope visitors to this site will be seeing, experiencing and feeling when they're there at the fully finished version of this.
Tesho Akindele 48:25
Honestly, my hope is that it just feels like a neighborhood, you know, stitched into the rest of Charlotte, like they come here, and it feels like a hub of a neighborhood. You know, like lots of neighborhoods in Charlotte, have their own little version of downtown. I hope that this feels like the downtown of the north end of Charlotte, essentially. So you come here, it's full of people living here, people just enjoying the public space, people working here, people coming to dinner here, but that it doesn't, it doesn't feel like you're going to a mall or something like something like that, that it just feels like you're passing through the neighborhood the same way as, I mean, you're in New York, like if you go to Park Slope Brooklyn, or something like that, you're just in a cool neighborhood, you know. And I want it, I want it to feel like that that is just stitched into the fabric of the city, and that it feels like just a wonderful neighborhood and kind of the hub of of the North end here in Charlotte.
Atif Z. Qadir 49:09
I love that answer, because that is the whole intent of urban redevelopment when it's done well, that is probably a very good segue into the larger topic at hand, because Camp North End is not the only type of location like this in former industrial cities that have transformed themselves into younger, hip locations. Brooklyn's always been hip, but I think that's another example that you brought up. What of the lessons that you have learned so far feel like the things that become the toolbox for other developers that are trying to do the same thing, or for you on the next Camp North End that you work on?
Tesho Akindele 49:52
One of the big things is have a plan, but be willing to change the plan. So this vision kind of started in 2017 and it was we're going to. Do all these huge blocks of office space, and that's going to be really the engine that drives the pro forma forward, then Covid hit. You know, the way we work changes. So we still do have a lot of office space, but we've also kind of pivoted to some okay, how do we use these big blocks of space differently? So we got a large event venue here on site that does corporate events, fundraisers, weddings, etc. We also got another big block of space, about 30,000 square feet. It's called Tipsy Pickle. And so it's like, I describe it as, like, top golf or pickleball, but you can go there and you grab a drink, you can grab some good food, and you can play some pickleball if you want. So, like, that space was supposed to be an office space. We've pivoted and so, and now it's a compliment to our office tenants, where one of our office tenants actually has a court reserved every day for their employees to just go before work and and get a game and if they want so having the business plan, being willing to pivot.
Tesho Akindele 50:40
Also on even a smaller scale, is, you know, if you have a budget for a project, we have kind of a fun after the development budget is closed, called, like, the placemaking budget, because you have a design and you think, like, oh, you know, people are going to use this space this way. I know exactly what we need to do, but you don't, you know, like, no matter how smart you are and how good your designers are, you will not nail it right away. So it's important to have money to make those adjustments afterwards where you can and so sometimes that might mean like, oh, you know what? This space ended up feeling too dark. We need to paint it, add some lights, brighten it up. Or it can be a free change, where one really interesting example. So this didn't even come out of the budget, but being willing to pivot is we had a seating arrangement that was one big table, and like eight chairs around it in front of, kind of our fireplace that we have over here. And if one person would go sit at that table, no one else would join them, because it would feel weird to join the circle with a stranger. And so what we did is we split that into four groups of two tables, or of two chairs, and now all those chairs are filled up all the time. And if you're sitting in a group of two, your friends can pull up the two next to you, but it's really activated those chairs in a way that, okay, our design was this circle of chairs around a common table. It didn't work, you know, and so we were willing to pivot. We scrapped the table. We got some new, smaller tables. We rearrange the seating, and it's better for people. So, you know, that's a small example, but being willing to make changes and meet people where they're at when you see how they're using your product is important,
Atif Z. Qadir 52:11
Amazing. So back to that shirt. Legalized housing. We talked about the product itself in terms of housing, but an important part of making housing integrated the community is the ability to hire locally, give people the opportunity that live nearby to be able to participate through workforce development, or other other types of programs like that, to really stitch the project together, socially, culturally, economically, with the stuff that's around it. Talk to me about any of those types of initiatives that you have done or are looking to do down the road.
Tesho Akindele 52:46
I guess what comes to mind there is in the north end of Charlotte. Before we got here, even there was a group of communities, and they all had their community associations advocating for stuff like that, workforce development, etc. That group, we actually gave them office space here in the middle of Camp North End, and so they host, you know, seminars for the community too. But there's something like, some people need Internet access, they're getting people in the community internet access. Some people need job training. They're getting people job training. So we've seen a lot of that. And then a lot of our office tenants as well. Like Ally Bank is one of our office tenants. They obviously do a lot for like, financial education and training here. Google Fiber is one of our office tenants. They do a lot to connect our site with super fast internet, but also all the surrounding communities. Because at the end of the day, you know, you can have a beautiful place, but if people can't get to it or afford to spend money there, it doesn't matter. Same with the apartments. You have beautiful apartments, people can afford them, it doesn't matter. So, you know, building up the infrastructure around us has been really important.
Atif Z. Qadir 53:43
Amazing. So you talked about the retail and the commercial spaces and how the activation of them is really important for creating this community. You're currently and you're continually doing commercial leasing. Tell our listeners about some of the opportunities that you see down the road, and how, if someone's interested in leasing a space, or if they know someone that knows somebody that wants to lease the space, how they can get in touch with you about those opportunities.
Tesho Akindele 54:10
Yeah, so we have lots of different types of opportunities available. Like I said, we have apartments, but we also have really small offices, from private offices all the way up into the really big opportunity out here is the 260,000 square foot Ford building that we have. You know, that can be demise into smaller spaces, but historic building from the 1920s beautiful when we redevelop it. So if you're out there and you, you know, you have an office space need anywhere from 1000 square feet all the way up to 260,000 square feet. You know, you can call me. You can find me on the Camp North End website. You can find me on social media anywhere. There's not too many touchscreen delis. So call me, and we can definitely solve your office needs or entertainment too. You know, if someone has a big jam or another kind of interesting art exhibit type of thing that they're looking for space, like I said, our plan stays flexible. So we do have a lot of space available in that future development, and even existing today, that some office tenants or some entertainment tenants can come and fill.
Atif Z. Qadir 55:08
Amazing. So similar to the way that you are able to open the next chapter of your career through the magic of social media and just messaging, DMing, the founder of Atco, perhaps listeners, if you're interested in one of these spaces, you can do the same thing just DM test show, and then the next chapter of your your business will be flourishing.
Tesho Akindele 55:28
Hopefully, yeah, let's get a 260,000 square foot lease through a DM. That'd be pretty awesome.
Atif Z. Qadir 55:33
Let's see if we can get that one going. So really, really appreciate your time today, Tesho, and really enjoyed hearing about your past and how you are weaving that into the work that you're doing at ATCO. So thank you so much for your time.
Tesho Akindele 55:44
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I mean, I feel really lucky to be here. A lot of people want to get into the development industry, and I got into it kind of in the best way possible, really building better neighborhoods.
Atif Z. Qadir 56:00
I'm Atif Qadir, and thanks for joining me on American Building. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on your favorite listing app and leave a rating and review. America's housing crisis is one of our greatest challenges. But what are the real solutions? Hear from the developers and other industry experts driving meaningful change, get our exclusive guide housing in America, eight ways we can solve our way out of a crisis at americanbuilding podcast.com.