Atif Z. Qadir 00:03
Welcome to American Building. I'm your host Atif Qadir. Join me as we explore the skylines and strip malls, the crosswalks and rail crossings, the balconies, the buildings and the burrows shaping the next generation of real estate. Let's build common ground.
Atif Z. Qadir 00:22
Today’s guest is Stephen Cassell of Architecture Research Office (ARO). Stephen trained in architecture at Princeton and the Harvard Graduate School of Design. His early work as a designer was at Steven Holl Architects. He cofounded ARO in the early 1990s and for more than thirty years, he has built a reputation for rigorously researched, human-centered architecture across cultural, institutional, and civic projects. ARO is a New York-based architectural design firm that cares intensely about craft and about buildings that work beautifully for people. ARO’s recent Green-Wood Cemetery Education & Welcome Center in Brooklyn is an unusual and proud example of that approach: a contemporary project set inside a historic landscape with deep layers of memory and horticultural history. Today we’ll talk about that project, and more broadly, about balancing history with contemporary design as an architect. Thank you so much for joining us, Stephen. And Happy Halloween!
Stephen Cassell 01:39
Thank you. Thank you. This is a perfect subject for that.
Atif Z. Qadir 01:43
I think so as well. So let's start off with beginning, which is always a very good place to start as Mary Poppins has taught us. You worked with the renowned architect Stephen Holl early in your career. What lessons from those early years shaped your approach as a designer?
Stephen Cassell 02:01
There were a lot. It was amazing place to be. It was a small office when I started three people and we were at 14 by the time I went back to grad school. And I think there's a couple of different things. One the love of craft, of architecture, the sort of technique of how things go together, and materiality is such an important part of Stephen's work. The other part is, and this is when I started, at least for pre computer, we did perspectives all the time, of details of every abstract so many more perspectives than a typical office. And really phi, one would say it's about phenomenology, but really thinking about what is it like to occupy the spaces and really testing that carefully and repeatedly, sort of iteratively as you're designing.
Atif Z. Qadir 02:48
How long were you at Stephen's office? And tell me about some of the projects that you worked on while you were there.
Stephen Cassell 02:53
Sure, I was there in two stints, around three and a half years right after undergrad, and then I went back to Harvard's GSD Graduate School of Design, and then I worked during summers and on some projects in between while I was at school, and then came back for around a year before went off with Adam to start our own firm.
Atif Z. Qadir 03:14
So speaking of Tell me about your partner at ARO, Adam, and how you I chose to make that decision to to leave working for Stephen's office to start your own thing.
Stephen Cassell 03:25
So Adam and I knew each other at Princeton. He was a grad student as an undergrad, until we were friends there, I went to Stephen's office, really, because he had a show in the lobby at the architecture school, and that's just seduced by his beautiful drawings. And after I was there for around a year. We needed to hire someone, and I snuck Adam's resume on the top of the pile, you could see diagonally through into Stephen's office when he was looking at stuff. So Adam came and we worked together for a while at Stephen's office. You know, I went back to school. Adam kept, kept working, and then in projects, I worked on really a variety of projects from early on. You know, Stephen was doing, like apartment renovations, but sort of very craft oriented and apartments. I was the project architect for a building in Seaside Florida, which is his first sort of larger building was around 20,000 square feet.
Stephen Cassell 04:16
In retrospect, I don't know why Stephen trusted me to work on that at all. I really had no idea what I was doing, but I just put in lots of work to try to make up for it. And thank you, Stephen for letting me do that. Worked out of a series of theoretical projects from theoretical projects for the Milan Triennale, I was actually hired to make models for that the trainee in jewelry, so I did all the solder in brass model for that two he had a show at the Museum of Modern Art that I sort of oversaw the installation of to a whole series of other projects. I had my hand in a lot of things. There was a competition that we had won for the American Library in Berlin, which was especially exciting project at the time in the office. In the office, the scale of work in the office was just starting to increase. Steven was getting progressively more and more known and getting a really interesting commission from you know me working on an apartment renovation to these much larger projects in the show at MoMA.
Atif Z. Qadir 05:14
So you mentioned that you had a background in jewelry design. Where? Why? How? What?
Stephen Cassell 05:20
When my grandfather was a civil engineer, he had an office, and in the Depression, he had zero work, so he decided to learn to become a jeweler, not as a craft. I think he was living off his life insurance at the time, but as what he said, but he learned it, and he, as I, when I was a small child, I would watch him doing that, and he was always going to teach me. And they actually had these beautiful three by five index cards with very precise pencil drawings of each piece that he made. I have those now. I have a still little wood file box of all those, all those drawings, and he was going to teach me.
Stephen Cassell 05:59
Unfortunately, he died when I turned seven. But my parents, both my sister and I, like, well, you know, you are going to learn jewelry. We're going to send you to a jewelry school on the Upper West Side, because I went on weekends for, I wouldn't say, eight years. My parents had this very idea that you had to have, like, an intellectual side and a craft side that you had making was important to that. Okay, so we had a shop in our basement. I we had a metal lathe and milling machine, and I was using all that stuff when I was a kid. And some of my interest in sort of tectonics of buildings comes comes from that early work.
Atif Z. Qadir 06:33
That is really fascinating. So were you selling any of that stuff in middle school or high school?
Stephen Cassell 06:39
No, you know, in middle school, I usually just gave it to my mom. Some of it I still have in the drawer. Some of my wife said, actually, but it was interesting and it was fun again, the idea of using your hand and craft and understanding material to really rewarding.
Atif Z. Qadir 06:54
Totally. I have a cadre of nieces and nephews, including my nephew Isak, who has made a rubber band bracelets which have a certain amount of intricacy to them because the folds and the connections between each rubber band. So I totally appreciate that. Okay, so ARO. How did you choose the name, and is there a connection to that very craft, like approach that you described just now?
Stephen Cassell 07:18
I want to say we've grown into our name. We chose the name. We had a weekend to come up with a name because we had a potential project we were trying to so I'd like to say that it was after a month of careful thought, but it was after a couple days of careful thought. Adam was at the time, was teaching it, I think was at UVA, we had left Stephen's, and we were like brainstorming, but we were trying to sort of think about something that was rigorous in our approach to architecture and how we like to think about making architecture. We stumbled upon this name after probably multiple beers and work sessions. We both learned so much working at Stephen's, and there were some things we really were aligned with. You know, Stephen worked so intuitively through these watercolors and ideas that connect, sometimes to science, sometimes almost work through putting lots of things in and slowly, meticulously taking things out and refining the denying that's that oversimplification.
Stephen Cassell 08:13
And I think we both realized we worked in the opposite way, just like very carefully building stuff up. And I think the sort of and really early on, this idea of research was a research into materiality, craft and site. But, you know, as our practice grew, and as we we started to really expand the idea of what research is within the office, to really have much more cultural research, much more research into the missions of the people we're designing for as we started to go from, you know, single family clients or renovations that we were doing or houses that we were designing, to designing for institutions, realizing that trying to understand the goals and values of that institution, that you can really have a direct link the architecture you're designing to the sort of mission of the people you're designing for.
Atif Z. Qadir 08:59
Amazing so you are not the first person from ARO that's been on the podcast. Your colleague Kim Yao was the guest in episode nine, and she talked about your project, which was Milgard Hall for the University of Washington, which had that, that layered, thoughtful approach to the project overall. So tell me about the teammates that you've built around you to execute on the increasingly complex and challenging projects that your firm works on.
Stephen Cassell 09:29
I feel incredibly lucky, and I guess blessed to have like such wonderful people that I get to collaborate with every day. So in addition to Kim and Adam and we work really closely, so all projects have two principles on them, and we collaborate together. We don't want to have a studio where that's like the Stephen projects and the Adam projects and the Kim projects. That's not really on our ethos of collaboration. We have everyone in our office. We have a very simple mantra, Kim would laugh if I say this, but I will anyway, everyone has to. Be incredibly talented. Everyone has to be really organized. If you're organized, you can have more time for design, and then everyone has to be really nice. And so laugh, we have a strict no assholes policy. ARO, we're in the office a lot, and you want to like what other people you're working for. And we, you know, we all fit in the big room. There's no private offices there. You know, we all are looking at what each other is doing, and we try to be about the Teaching and Learning Office as well. And Adam, Kim and I, among other people, also teach teach outside and universities as well.
Stephen Cassell 10:36
And I'm really lucky, there's great always great people. Megumi Tamanaha to the studio director, has this uncanny eye of pulling in people who will be good when we think of the office as a community, and really try to make sure we have a balanced community of people coming from very different schools. You're coming with different sort of views of how they see architecture and how they see the world around them, because we feel like we do better architecture with different viewpoints and also different people hear things because they come from different cultural backgrounds. And so when we're working with clients, you listen better. If you have people with a variety of backgrounds.
Stephen Cassell 11:14
I do want to shout out to a couple people who are working on the project that we're going to talk about is Drew Powers, who's the project manager who's been working on this project for a long time is just amazing designer. He's also the office pun master, but you have to have him on some other time and make the mean mac and cheese is cheese. Van der Rohe being one of the top ones. Also Jeff Hong who's hard to keep straight face when you're laughing like that. But Jeff Hong, who's Technical Director in the Office, also was really deeply involved in this, and there's a lot of sort of technique to making this building come together in his sort of elegant and effortless
Atif Z. Qadir 11:52
way. I love it as it definitely takes a team to make a beautiful project like this one. So let's talk about the Green-Wood Cemetery Education and Welcome center, so give us a background about the area overall, like the cemetery, and also introduce us to the brief. What was the client asking for, and what were some of the constraints or challenges that you had to deal with?
Stephen Cassell 12:21
Green-Wood Cemetery is in the heart of Brooklyn. I'm lifelong Brooklynite. I had never been there. It is incredibly beautiful. It's almost 500 acres. It was, I think, founded in 18, I want to say 1838 but it was really when it first opened up, almost like a proto Park, a proto Central Park, or Prospect Park, if you know Brooklyn, and it was incredibly visited when it first opened. I think I remember a statistic that the only in New York, the Niagara Falls, was only the but the most visited in Green-Wood Cemetery was an insist, very nicely landscaped, almost English garden, like with rolling hills, has an incredible history of people who were buried there from the Revolutionary War and the Battle of Brooklyn occurred on in Green-Wood Cemetery, or part of it to civil war, to many historical figures of New York and in the United States are interred there. And so it's a beautiful place. It's interesting that over time, they're filling up. And so around 15 or 20 years ago, the then President Rich Moylan had this idea that maybe we can slowly become a cultural organization as well.
Stephen Cassell 13:26
And so what do we do in 20 years from now, when we have no more place for people, what do we become? And so they've slowly been morphing, and they are an active cemetery still, but they have amazing art installations there music in the catacombs, all types of events and installations throughout the year. As part of that, they wanted to do sort of an education the Welcome Center that acted as a as a gateway to learn about the cemetery before you visited it, and it's interesting. So the cemetery has many entrances because it's so large, but the main one is on 25th Street and Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn, which is Sunset Park. It has an incredibly beautiful early 1860s arch by Richard Upjohn. Really beautiful brownstone, Gothic structure. But Green-Wood bought a greenhouse that was across the street from the entrance, and that greenhouse was from one of the 1890 1891 they were kits, actually, and it's one of the few surviving ones, and it was where you would go to buy flowers before you went cemetery. And it was active until the 1970s and then it just went in disrepair and it wasn't used. And Green-Wood bought it, thinking we could do something with this. They hired a different firm to restore it, and they started to do that restoration, but they had this idea of doing a building that connects to it, that gets to use the greenhouse as a multi purpose space.
Stephen Cassell 14:52
It could have a museum, could also house their offices because they are an active cemetery. It could have classrooms, all these other things that the idea being that you would go there first learn about it and learn about the deep history of Green-Wood. And they, they think of it in a couple different ways. That history is the history of the city, really, through the people who are buried there. There's also, it's actually what's called, I think, the level three Arboretum, meaning has over 500 species of trees, of which some are very old. And so that's a different part of it. And they wanted to use the history of the people there, the idea of nature as a lens into the history of New York and as a lens into people learning about nature. So they thought like, let's do this building that connects to it, and really create a complex that support the cemetery and also support it more as it transitions over the next 20 years to more cultural organization than active active cemetery.
Stephen Cassell 15:51
It was a really interesting brief greenhouse is actually an individually landmark structure, so you have to go to the Landmarks Preservation Commission. There was an earlier architect and scheme that just available and approved. And so we they basically opened up the process and did a request for proposals of people to come with ideas of, how could you like create a building around this, and how can you create a building there they had the goals that I talked about, and then another, just pragmatic goal, we need to make sure the Landmark Preservation Commission approved, because it can't get built unless we do. So, we always look for our clients with really clear mission and interesting ideas and sort of rich histories and all this is this had everything there, plus beautiful buildings on the side of the cemetery at different entrance buildings, in addition to the up Upjohn arch that I described,
Atif Z. Qadir 16:45
If you appreciate thoughtful design forward jewelry, you'll love The Mira Shoppe. It is an ethical fine jewelry brand that offers artisan crafted pieces from developing countries. From its sales, it supports educational opportunities for girls worldwide. I shop there myself, and can personally recommend their unique, beautifully made products. Check them out at www.themirashoppe.com, and that's spelled T, H, E, M, I, R, A, S, H, O, P, P, e.com, American building podcast listeners get a complimentary gift with their first purchase just email info@themirashoppe.com to receive your exclusive code and treat yourself to a piece you'll cherish while supporting a brand that gives back you.
Atif Z. Qadir 17:44
So the actual process of this was, as I mentioned, and you described an RFP, which meant there were multiple firms that were hoping to get this commission, and there's an interview process. And I think your interview happened the day before Christmas, tell us about how the interviews went. Obviously, well, but what was the process like?
Stephen Cassell 18:07
I went and looked at the deck of images that we showed that, and we had a couple statements between it that then we illustrated. The one was just that we believe architecture and the built environment directly shape experience. The other is, which is true, of course, we we design in close collaboration with our clients. We see them as as really deep collaborators, not that they're doing the design, but we're bringing along this design process with them with deep knowledge that they have, and we do that to directly support their goals through architecture.
Stephen Cassell 18:35
And then, most importantly for this, we understand that sites must balance history, memory, a sense of place with modern facilities, technology and change, which I think is sort of the nature of what this project is, in retrospect, looking back at it, and then architecture, you think of it as design, but as much strategic thinking of, how are you going to get this approved? How are you going to build there around a very sensitive, physically sensitive structure, or delicate structure, and that you need to do a lot of thinking before you're actually starting to design. Strategic thinking about the strategy of how you approach design before you start design.
Atif Z. Qadir 19:11
If I'm not mistaken, there is also a very aromatic location next to it.
Stephen Cassell 19:18
Yes, there is. We're right next to a bakery called Baked in Brooklyn. It is not a cannabis installation.
Atif Z. Qadir 19:25
but it sounds like it should be.
Stephen Cassell 19:27
I know. I'm sure there's many people are upset that that was already taken. It is a bakery right against the site, and then their store where they sell their baked goods. So they think they sell across the city as well to other restaurants and things is on on the other side, you walk on site and you're hungry because here's a smelling baked bread. It's a It's good thing. You have to adjust when you go to the job site, when it's under construction, to make sure you had already eaten. You're really just focusing on how hungry you are.
Atif Z. Qadir 19:54
That sounds like it's wonderful if you are not gluten free or low carb. Otherwise ignore that and have your lunch ahead of time.
Stephen Cassell 20:03
Exactly.
Atif Z. Qadir 20:04
Research is a key part of your name, as we discussed earlier, and this site has a ton of history involved in it. That is, as you described, a great source of inspiration. So tell me about the things that you used it as resources, like historical archives and plans, any other documents that you felt helped influence you as you were doing the research for figuring out how you wanted to approach the design of the project.
Stephen Cassell 20:34
So Green-Wood has as an archive, a very deep archive, which is now housed in the building and especially climate controlled space. And it is really interesting, and it's funny, you know, you work on projects, sometimes you're doing this research, and you find an aha moment of like, Oh, here's this thing. And other projects, you learn lots of small things that layer up, start to build an approach. And I think Green-Wood was, was the second of these that where we because we're really part of it, of learning the rich history of the cemetery. All the different people are buried there, from you know, bask painter, to the Pierpont, who are important in New York history, governors, all of those start to build a cultural context that you can start to measure your design against, that you can start to look at, is this gonna is the building going to align further the knowledge of these, further imparting the knowledge, further exhibitions that are going to go in there?
Stephen Cassell 21:33
And so, it's funny, I was thinking about this, and I was like, there was no one, aha moment. But I think the other aspect which is interesting is the materiality of the cemetery. And so there's Upjohn arch, which is a brownstone. There are all these different monuments, some of them very large, and mausoleums and things. There are different entry buildings with terracotta, with stone. And I think that language of materiality that's so apparent when you're walking around the cemetery, and also the language of views. The cemetery has these hills that you can look back you can see the Statue of Liberty and lower Manhattan from up there. All of that started to inform our thinking about the materiality for the new building, in addition to how the material of the new building would connect with the greenhouse itself.
Atif Z. Qadir 22:22
Amazing, and as you started developing the design tell me about the particular design ethos, or the design strategies or elements from that research that you used as the guiding light as you put the project together.
Stephen Cassell 22:40
Yeah, I think, I mean, one of the most basic things, and this was both strategic, but we felt like it was the right thing to do, is the greenhouse is beautiful, right? This is such an unusual structure,
Atif Z. Qadir 22:50
It's glass and iron?
Stephen Cassell 22:52
Yeah, it's glass and a very filigree iron. It has one of the walls is a brick wall that was connected to an adjacent building, but it's class all around. It has a now new, you know, restored copper dome of sort of on the top the greenhouse was originally painted green. Nothing novel there. And it has a very distinct materiality. And I think an early idea we had, and this is really, you know, I described the Upjohn arch. You're really walking up a winding road to get to that arch. And the arches is maybe 4050, feet higher elevation than the greenhouse. You're looking down back at the greenhouse. And these views, which I was talking about, the other views you get from the cemetery, these views to and from from the arch, looking back down at the greenhouse, and from the greenhouse and from the project site, looking back up really informed the design.
Stephen Cassell 23:43
So we wanted to create a building that came an elegant backdrop to this greenhouse, right? So we didn't want to compete against it. We wanted to do something very that almost was, and if you think of the building as an L, sort of an L shape with the greenhouse. There that L shape was tall, taller the greenhouse. So when you're looking at it down the hill, you're seeing this L, and I'll describe the material of a burgundy, almost aubergine, terracotta that serves as the backdrop. And we're very conscious of that view and how the building really nestled the greenhouse, and how the materiality of the of the new building played with that.
Atif Z. Qadir 24:26
Amazing. So that's an interplay between the old and the new that is a key piece of the overall design of the project.
Stephen Cassell 24:34
Yes, and when we were looking at materials, and I was going through some early presentations to the clients, one where we're just pulling snippets of photos of parts of buildings on their site, and so you just see the materials together as well. You know, I was realizing that the one thing we really liked about the terracotta, it's glazed, so it's, you know, a little bit glossy. You can get really rich, deep colors with it, that it both ties in with a lot of the historical materials on the overall cemetery, but clearly as modern and so we didn't want to do something that looked like it was old building. We wanted to do something that's clearly modern and abstract enough and fine grained enough, and I'll describe this in a minute, that it didn't take away from that overall form that you see of the shape of the green hemp that it really complemented it, rather than then fought with it.
Atif Z. Qadir 25:25
Amazing. So that sounds like that. The tar God is one of those design details that were a particular, a very iconic part of the project. Tell us about that in a little bit more detail in terms of where do the tiles come from. What was their origin? Like the the mix, any particular anecdotes that you think are worthwhile?
Stephen Cassell 25:45
Yeah. So it's basically their custom terracotta panels, in what's called baguettes, which is a baguette in terracotta language,
Atif Z. Qadir 25:53
Is that what's being made in Baked in Brooklyn, that's where you're you're getting the baguettes from?
Stephen Cassell 25:58
Yeah, one would hope. But those of those don't last as long. Even if they're glazed, they won't last when you put them outside. Yeah. So a baguette is basically a vertical piece of terracotta that's in front of the glass that acts as a shield from the sun.
Atif Z. Qadir 26:15
Oh, so it literally looks like a baguette, because that's shape, yeah, exactly,
Stephen Cassell 26:19
Exactly. So that's why it's called a baguette. So the baguettes are parallelogram from above, and the angle either goes one way or angles the opposite way, and it catches the light differently depending on which way it's angled. And that gave us a subtle way to change the patterning on the facades. These happen every 18 inches, in some places every 12 inches, to create some overall patterning, and sort of horizontal patterns that went across. Those horizontal patterns line up with key points on the greenhouse, so as a way to sort of start to make very subtle connections, and also make an argument to the landmark Preservation Commission on why we're being respectful, and we're referring to that. So it allowed us to have some asymmetric modern design, but very, very subtle. Those baguettes also just helped with cutting the bright sunlight and areas where we needed solid wall. You had solid panels with the baguettes, in essence embedded in it. And sometimes, because this is Brooklyn, and this is, you know, urban environment. Sometimes we had ones that poked out, outies, and we had innies where it was the same shape but pushed embedded into sort of a black panel, because we didn't want areas that came close to the ground. So I want to try to break something off. So we're trying to try to be thoughtful. Because I, you know, what would I do on Halloween when I was a kid and the trick or treat, they were like, do something bad there and hurt it.
Stephen Cassell 27:43
But that gave us a real language. But because it's just these very fine fins, actually not too different from the background, right here. It's a very fine grain patterning, and so it doesn't compete with a larger shape of the greenhouse, right? They're very different greenhouses, just like, really distinct shape, right? It's like the dome, the angled glass roof. So it works really well as a backdrop, which we really see from the top of the hill when you're in at the Upjohn arch looking back down. The other part of the design, though, was making sure when you were in the building, both obviously in the greenhouse, felt glass and you could look up the hill and see the arch cemetery. But we were really careful about particular views back up to the Upjohn arch, and making those visual connections from the area that the exhibitions will be in, so people can really understand where they are and really make that connection to go up the hill into the cemetery. And this ties into, you know, our early conversation about one of the things I learned at Stephen Holls is really just checking those viewpoints all through the building to make sure there are many points that you connected back up the hill and really had that visual connection, both looking down and looking up from the education center up to to the cemetery.
Atif Z. Qadir 28:58
So earlier on, we talked about the importance of the teammates that you have on your project and executing on the vision. So for example, Kim Yo, talk me about the folks that you've worked with across your projects that are other firms, consultants that have been instrumental in executing this project, and then other projects as well.
Stephen Cassell 29:19
There have been so many and so much of our work is about collaboration. I think you know, to focus on Green-Wood project. We had a really great close collaboration with the landscape architect Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates, and we've worked with them in Brooklyn Bridge Park and in Union Square as well. And they is so important because the entry to the building, which is basically a courtyard between our building. This gap between the two is landscape, with this beautiful, winding path and really densely landscaped. So it feels like you're within Green-Wood Cemetery. And then the other thing they do so beautifully is it's a greenhouse. We you know, we're not going to have plants in there, flowers. So they surrounded the greenhouse with really dense planting. And so it's almost when you're within the greenhouse, you feel like it is a greenhouse, and that when you're looking at it walking down the street, it feels like some of the landscaping from the cemetery has sort of come and swirled its way around the greenhouse and our project. And they also made one area that ties into the greenhouses, the one story section of the building. On top of that is a sculpted green roof that you can see from above. And so it really is like has a incredible, sort of subtle but beautiful topography. Because they really, they realize that this is something that great, one being roof that you actually see as you're looking down from the Upjohn arch. So we always loved our collaborations with the with Michael's office and Adrian, who's running the project. There were great collaborators.
Atif Z. Qadir 30:51
Amazing. So this project is an example of one that is a new building within a historic context. How do you decide, or what's the approach that you take in terms of deciding when there is something that should contrast incredibly or something that should blend in, and what is that, that kind of thought process, like on the this project and various other projects you've worked on?
Stephen Cassell 31:17
You know, we really look at each Project and specifics of the project, whether the new building relationship to the old should contrast with it or really serve as a as that sort of elegant backdrop. And really is project dependent on this, both because of landmark then also just because the beautiful form of of the existing building, of the greenhouse, is really beautiful. It's an amazing thing that we really felt like being a background to that. And then when you get closer to our building, you see the subtleties and details and sort of modern qualities of it. I always like projects where you discover things when you're close and it's different from afar. It's nice to have discovery and architecture, and other times, some projects that contrast is really important either to tell a story for the people who are occupying it.
Stephen Cassell 32:04
I remember a project we did for Calvin Klein, the artist Sterling Ruby and creative director Ross Simmons, and it's in a beautiful 1920s bank, old bank building with the big, tall windows and on the interior. We painted the interior bright, bright yellow, with Sterling sculpture there that the two contrasted off each other in a really beautiful way. And it spoke to the fashion designer optimism approach to fashion, and, you know, really tied into a story of what that project was. So it's project dependent, and that's part of the fun of the project is trying to figure out what is the right approach. How do you really support the mission that the people you're designing for? What's the right way to see that?
Atif Z. Qadir 32:48
And then related to that, there are often constraints that you have in terms of zoning code, building code or Landmarks Preservation code that make it difficult to move freely within the design process when you are working on or around historic or landmark building? Are there any changes that you would make to any of those entitlements to make your life easier?
Stephen Cassell 33:15
One, I would say that sometimes invention and great things come out of constraints, and it just forces you to think about a project in different ways. Not that we want every project to be have a million constraints to it. But there's not nothing bad to that, because it just forces you to sort of embed new ways of dealing with it. On this project, one of the requirements, because the type of building it was for parking underneath it, it is very hard to build a parking garage underneath an existing, delicate greenhouse, as you might imagine, because it would fall apart, well, freshly restored, and then fall apart as we tried to do that, so that we actually had to go through a long process to get a variance, to not have to do that, not have the policy. And also, personally, I don't think the city needs more cars. So there's a, there's a philosophical thing that goes with that as well. I think public transportation is a good way to go in terms of the environment in the world we live in.
Atif Z. Qadir 34:08
So if you're looking back at this project, what were the takeaways, or the lessons that you learned that you hope to apply on future projects that you're doing?
Stephen Cassell 34:19
That's a good, good question. Well, you know, projects have different things. One some projects we just like, oh, you know, I learned so much about terracotta on this we went to the factory in Germany where it was made and watch how it's made and like, learning the sort of technique of how or these architectural parts are made are always allows you to be a better designer. So there's like, a whole technical side of the project where I think, personally, and I think the office learned a lot, and that will always carry into other work that we do. It's funny because the project is just finishing, so I don't know if I'm even distant enough to have exactly what I learned. Other than like, oh, maybe I should think about what happens when I die. Do I want to be buried in place? Is this pretty cool in Green-Wood Cemetery? Do they give architects discount?
Atif Z. Qadir 35:10
So I would imagine this might be an appropriate place to include some Halloween themed architecture jokes, given that, given that it is Halloween, I'm gonna see, see how well these lands. So what do you call the architectural plan for a haunted house?
Stephen Cassell 35:29
What?
Atif Z. Qadir 35:29
A booprint.
Atif Z. Qadir 35:32
Why are architects so good at building haunted houses?
Stephen Cassell 35:37
Why?
Atif Z. Qadir 35:39
Because they're always a little bit sketchy.
Atif Z. Qadir 35:42
And this one, I think this one is probably my favorite. This is more of a pun than a joke, but don't take marble for granite when building a haunted house.
Stephen Cassell 35:57
You'll be lucky if anyone watches your podcast again,
Atif Z. Qadir 36:01
It may be the end for all of our listeners.
Stephen Cassell 36:05
I feel exactly we did. You know, after we had the interview, we walked out and said we killed it, but, and there were many other puns that I should have checked with Drew our pun master during the course of the project, though, and one of my favorite was someone who works there, and now they actually, I think they're starting to sell these shirts that say, visit Green-Wood while you can still leave.
Atif Z. Qadir 36:31
That is, is epic. And if those are still available, we'll include the link to buy those shirts in the show notes. So, or for you. So, what kind of projects are you excited about and you want to pursue?
Stephen Cassell 36:49
That's great question. You know, we have always looked for clients like really interesting clients with interesting missions and things that are exciting to us, where we're going to learn from it, and then you can do a great building from there. And so, yes, of course, I, you know, we do a lot of work in the arts, and doing an art museum would be great. So that would be awesome, you know, I but I think, I think we're less like, I want to do an X, you know, a stadium. We have done a stadium, actually, but you have been a stadium. We have done a stadium. Well, you were doing a chicken coop and a synagogue at the same time. I always thought that was a great trifecta to talk about our office.
Atif Z. Qadir 37:26
That's the line from HH Richardson, because he said that Trinity Church designer in Boston, he said that I'll design anything from a chicken coop to a cathedral.
Stephen Cassell 37:34
There you go.
Atif Z. Qadir 37:34
You took a more New York spin on in a synagogue.
Stephen Cassell 37:39
Okay, yeah, we did. We did okay to us. It's the problem that's in front of us where we can make a really interesting building that we can be proud of. That's really to say, not to edit out anyone who's listening to this, who has a really interesting project. It doesn't have to be a chicken coop or a stadium. But again, you know we do, we do damn nice chicken coops. I have to say
Atif Z. Qadir 37:59
Those lucky chickens.
Stephen Cassell 38:01
A lot of other puns that went with that for Paula fowl and and more. But yeah.
Atif Z. Qadir 38:06
I really need to see those, these lists of puns. So if you need some time to write them down, send them over and we'll, we'll include it with your episode in the show notes. So what's the best way for folks who might be interested in and working with you on their projects, like developers, etc, how should they get in touch with you?
Stephen Cassell 38:25
Www.Aro.net. Go to our website, you'll see email addresses of everything, and yes, we're always looking for great people to either collaborate with as designers or consultants or our clients collaborate with as clients.
Atif Z. Qadir 38:38
Excellent. So that brings us to the end of today's episode. So thank you so much for being here with us, Steven. And I really appreciate your time today.
Stephen Cassell 38:50
Oh, really nice to be here, and really nice conversation with you. Thank you.
Atif Z. Qadir 38:53
Thank you, of course, and have a good Halloween.
Stephen Cassell 38:55
You too. You too.
Atif Z. Qadir 38:58
I'm Atif Qadir, and thanks for joining me on American building. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on your favorite listing app and leave a rating and review. America's housing crisis is one of our greatest challenges. But what are the real solutions? Hear from the developers and other industry experts driving meaningful change. Get our exclusive guide housing in America, eight ways we can solve our way out of a crisis at Americanbuildingpodcast.com.