Matthias Hollwich of HWKN | 25 Kent in Brooklyn | How To Find The Right Partner

Transcript

Atif Qadir  00:07

Great, let's get this party started. So my name is Atif Qadir and this is conversation at Michael Graves. In this series we will hear the stories of American buildings from the perspective of the architects and developers who are constructing them. They will talk about the process and the product on a deeply personal, highlighting the teamwork, integrity, ingenuity, empathy and commitment that's necessary to produce these works of art gracing the skylines of our cities and towns. Our very first guest in this series is Matthias Hollwich, founder and partner of the architecture firm Hockin. He'll be talking about 25 cats. He has recently completed commercial building on the Williamsburg waterfront and Brooklyn. It totals 500,000 square feet divided between office, light manufacturing and retail. It includes 1.8 acres of open space and for your dog owners, a pop up puppy spa and camp. The owners of the project are heritage Equity Partners and Rubinstein partners, Matthias, thank you so much for being here with us.

Matthias Hollwich  01:12

Thank you for having me.

Atif Qadir  01:14

So we're going to take it way, way back before 25k. You started your firm in 1999. After having worked for Rem Koolhaas, four or five years, what was going through your mind and your heart in making that decision to start your own firm.

Matthias Hollwich  01:30

It was actually a small little gap between actually leaving omegas when Koolhaas because after having worked for such a Master, I realized that I needed to first have a reboot. And because just going directly out of his office onto my own would mean that I would just try to do what he did, but maybe a little bit different. And what I did actually, in the interim, I started teaching at ETH in Zurich. And then I started something more internet based that was actually called detect electronic architectural studio, it was the.com bubble in 2001.

Atif Qadir  02:07

It was the idea that you would be producing designs for clients from all over the world without having to be near them.

Matthias Hollwich  02:13

It was actually interesting that we create a technology that was the translator between architects with the drawings and the needs from private clients for private homes. So you could actually on a parametric design engine, how we called it, you could customize your own home based on drawings from architects. So it was really like a it was a venture, it was still architectural, but it was also a kind of a whole different business model that we tested at that time. And then after that, slowly but surely through like a little bit. pores in Amsterdam, I came now 14 years ago to America. And that's when the company started.

Atif Qadir  02:56

So based on that unusual start, I shouldn't really be surprised about the way that you describe your firm. So you describe Aachen as a collection of design, construction and communication specialists led by an architect and tech entrepreneur. And then Hopkin is a new kind of architecture firm, how did you put those words together and make that decision to call your firm in that way.

Matthias Hollwich  03:17

So it really started first with just being experimental and not having a theory, and really just grabbing any kind of opportunity and just exploring. And there were like pop ups that happened with Mini Cooper, then there were little installations and apartments and projects get bigger and bigger. But what was always interesting than by reflecting on what was done before, was that we never really followed just a typical footstep of what you expect from an architect, as a pure designer, there was always a different sensibility, either way that architecture wanted to become a communication tool, or it was a support system for a new venture. So all of these things over time really built up so that we could make that statement today.

Atif Qadir  04:08

So 25, cat started with Toby Moskovitz, the owner of heritage equity partners, we both know her well tell us how that relationship started.

Matthias Hollwich  04:19

So one day, we got a call in the office. And basically, the person asked, I would like to come by and I may have a big project for you. Let's talk. Of course, small firm, just won the young architects program, this museum of modern art ps1. And so we were kind of in the news. And that's it. Are you going to do it better? And I looked at these plans. I was like, Oh my God, yes, the horror. Something called they were really bad. But we were like, Yeah,

Atif Qadir  04:50

since the bar was set really low. So well was

Matthias Hollwich  04:52

very, very low. But then the amazing thing is Toby is actually not a developer. Now she's one but that time she was still kind of a tech investor out of Israel came to New York started with real estate, and just really knew that something is changing, but now in the industry, and what she wanted is a building that is really about the future, but rooted in the DNA of where it's from, which is Brooklyn. Sure. So she took me basically on a tour, and we walked through Brooklyn, and she showed me all the things that she thought were interesting. And were part of what makes Brooklyn so special, whereby xmedia moved in. You also had Amazon, just their rented some studio spaces for photo shoots, and so on. So when like all of these interesting things, you all knew about it, and basically asked us to start to look into a design that device out of the future of real estate in terms of an office building, but also is very true to its locality, which is problem. And then what we like to do is not us, as architects come in with this great vision, actually come up with this many different visions and engage with the client and have workshops. And then I still remember, it was an evening that was slightly snow, he came in with a kid. Yeah, yeah. And we had multiple designs on the table. And then we started sketching together. And very quickly, the one scheme that became the forefront Runner was an idea about taking warehouses, just stacking them on top of each other, and having kind of a formality, but also a very strong impression, or an expression is a building. And that kind of one from the first day on, where we had that kind of workshop. And then a very long story of like, you live and rezoning and everything happened to until it's not

Atif Qadir  06:51

sure. So it sounds like the warehouse aesthetic of Williamsburg was something that inspired your design. Were there any other things for example, the beautiful views of the of the Manhattan skyline or oddly dressed hipsters anything else?

Matthias Hollwich  07:04

Yeah, so there's something, let's say in my design DNA, there's always something social, I think architecture has an incredible responsibility to its people. And what we wanted to do is by actually creating a big blue collar was like a punch through the building that split the core, and open the building to the community with public access. That is something that actually really determined the form and the DNA of the building. I think that is a very, very big influence. But you can see that on every one of the projects that kind of I have done in my past. And the other element is it really, of course, the cut and the split of the building with public plazas that are opening up, but that was also you have to give credit to the city, the building department, they asked actually for more public access, which we love to incorporate into the design. But that was really a collaboration later on also doing the unit process.

Atif Qadir  08:05

Right. So to take it a step back, the eventual design that you chose was an eight storey building, with two wings 15 foot ceiling heights shaped like a pyramid ziggurat style, with the ground floor pedestrian Avenue underneath. Given that there were certain designs that the developer didn't want, what were the designs that you passed on, on the way to getting to this one?

Matthias Hollwich  08:30

Yeah, so it was actually not so iterative, because we had just a couple of alternatives. And the one was the big box floating on stilts. And the next one is maybe two buildings. I don't even remember because we run through so many different design iterations. And but it became very logical that this one was the one for that place. Because soon we had the first renderings done. And the first messing, you just felt, it just fit and they wanted to be there. And that is actually for me, the art and also the future of architecture that you don't do any kind of grand vision anymore in terms of a organization and an aesthetic that you plop into different cities. And you actually have to look into what the city already offers, and carve out these kinds of qualities and intensify them in your projects. And with that you create something that makes the city look better, and not worse when the building is done.

Atif Qadir  09:29

So in order to in order to realize a lot of those, those design intents that you had, you needed to have the square footage to actually build on this site. So you'd mentioned earlier that there was a limited FA R on the site of floor area ratio. So in its original state before it was rezoned, it was an FA RS two, which means to multiple of the lot area. So eventually what was built was a five FA R How did that come to be? What was that process like?

Matthias Hollwich  10:00

So the that is kind of the testament to an incredible collaboration. First of all, well, first of all, a visionary developer like Toby Mackiewicz. And Michael, her business partner, who basically knew she wants much more mass, which was important for the site. But also, of course, for the financial balance sheet for the development itself. So in order to have more square foot to rent, basically, absolutely. And for the effort of planning, and of course, the site costs and construction costs, and so on. So they are there is at some point, like a magic number that you would like to achieve, and she felt the five fer is where the journey should go. But then, the interesting part was that she didn't go to the city and just ask for more area, she went to the city with our designs, and excited them about the potential of the site. And that is what I feel also as something very kind of interesting for future negotiations with the city, don't just go there and say, like, hey, we need more maths, show what you offer for the additional density, and excite people around it. And that's what she basically did with the collaboration with the city and the neighborhood. There was an a mandate to bring in light manufacturing into the building, the public plazas, all of these kinds of things played a role in it. But that was really a common the collaboration between the planning and of course, the development itself.

Atif Qadir  11:29

So would it be correct to say that it wasn't necessarily just about the thoughtfulness about the design, it was also about smart strategy and how to actually get to execute it in a in a public environment like that.

Matthias Hollwich  11:40

Absolutely. And I think it becomes more and more important that they integrate, actually, the community in your planning, with just been asked actually in Berlin right now about a large area, which is called ra W. Which is like, totally like, it's not even hipster. It's like outcasts who live there with like, in the own kind of community, it's very anti development. And our client has done some schemes, and it's all being rejected. And now they're asking us to come up with an idea that emotionally picks up people with the potential of density, that gives something to the community. And it's not just abusive as a development. And that's what Toby moszkowicz has done with us in the design on 25. Ken, it feels like it gives something to the community, it's not a loss that you lost one warehouse, you actually got a cool building this eight warehouses on top of each other. It's actually much better now. Because before it was a single block, just unaccessible. And now we have this public space in between, and you have also cool cafes, restaurants, and so on. So that's kind of what what I feel it's kind of the magic behind it.

Atif Qadir  12:51

So the eventual end result of those public amenities were what you described, what were some of the original community responses and the pushback, as I'm sure there was a lot of pushback about this design.

Matthias Hollwich  13:04

They were actually not too many push backs. Yeah, because there was already a story, we had these visuals. And it was very well curated in terms of just informing people were really informally and more formally, so that nobody has a bad surprise. And then I think the most important thing is that you build exactly what you promised. That's what Toby did. And now we're doing the next one. Sure.

Atif Qadir  13:29

So in the design, we've described the design so far, you've talked about the physical connectivity, but let's also talk about the visual connectivity. So you chose to have curtain Well, curtain wall on the east and west facades that face the river and Williamsburg and punched windows on the north south facades. Could you talk about how you went through the decision of the materials that you used on the the facade of the building?

Matthias Hollwich  13:54

Yeah, so by having done the tours was Toby through the whole neighborhood, seeing all the warehouses and the beautiful textured bricks, that was immediately due intuition to use these materials for the majority of the building and use

Atif Qadir  14:07

the multicolored bricks throughout there a certain variety that color

Matthias Hollwich  14:11

Exactly. So you want to I mean, it feels like as if it has been there and a little bit ah, but it also presents, it's something quite contemporary. But then if you would do that for the whole building, then suddenly it becomes unclear when it was really built. So that's also why we cut it open, almost like like a slice with the Super curtain wall, where you can really look deep into the building and you see all the kinds of activities of people expressed in the facade and that is so important. Also, you want to make building speak to the audience on the outside and through the people in the insight and this is what we like to do exposing sometimes these kind of activities that happen at these two facades

Atif Qadir  14:55

and also bringing natural light to the centers these floorplates which isn't that common at all. office buildings

Matthias Hollwich  15:00

Exactly. And it feels almost as if 25. Kent is inspired also by European conditions, because it's not a center core, with just your 42 feet li span, it has a split core with a variation of different least depth. In some areas, you have actually three sides of Windows, which is also much more European. We're doing right now a project in Munich, and you see that there's a similarity in some of the DNA is in here.

Atif Qadir  15:28

So would you say that the design decisions that you made help inform some of the the intent of the building from a marketing perspective? So for example, in the marketing materials, words, like share, cross pollinate trading ideas, breakthroughs, aha moments all up here? Do you feel that the design helps support all of those ideas?

Matthias Hollwich  15:49

Yeah, so I think by actually going away from the typical dimensions, and also the typical organization, we turned an office building into an urban campus, okay. And that already built basically a lot of the can share communication and the more collective kind of idea as a building, which you normally you have to work so hard when you have a typical center core, set the building, because then it's really, I think it's administrational and organizational, you have to do it better to just physically. And that's already the beginning of that kind of communal kind of feel.

Atif Qadir  16:31

And by centocor, you're referring to stairs and elevators in the center, everything else around it. Exactly. So all of this sounds like a big departure from the way that office buildings are traditionally conceived. Do you imagine that there would be hesitation or confusion amongst the actual office workers that would be in this environment?

Matthias Hollwich  16:49

I think the confusion is still a lot with leasing agents, right, because they're used to the spec sheets, and this building doesn't comply to it. But it's so fascinating. Actually, in spring, I was at Uli in Nashville. And we saw a old building, which was a what was it? Not even like a factory, it was where we it was a lot of strange spaces that was about to be renovated. And next to it, they were planning to build a very beautiful new high tech office. And the people who were developing were basically saying, like, look, it's kind of funny that we're gonna make so much more money per square foot on the old building, because it's weird. It's unusual. This is what people want. And our new office building going to be, it's going to be leased nicely, but it's less valuable. So the unlogical existing building has more value today than the rational, high tech building. And this is for me the lesson now, we have to break with all the different rules of what we have learned before, to create something that is emotional, that becomes unforgettable for people. And that becomes something for the future of our industries, which is all about creativity, connectivity, innovation. And you cannot do that in a typical box anymore. Okay. And actually, to bring the back to some of the one thing which I still remember, like so vividly swim Koolhaas, we worked on a office building for universal in LA. And we had a problem about executive flow to the regular floor to lobby, parking and offices again, and then the basement. And we had to coordinate the grid to make it efficient. And there was an executive architect and they worked on the grid for a couple of days. And then they had a big presentation to Rem Koolhaas at the time. And they were like, well, we combined all the grids. And we found out the perfect width is four foot two. And then REM lit up was like great. Now we know which grid we're not going to use. And I was like yes. And I think 25 CANS is doing exactly that. It's doing everything wrong, what normally somebody would tell you to do,

Atif Qadir  19:06

which might actually speak more intuitively to people.

Matthias Hollwich  19:09

Yeah. And also, you see it also hurts building, for example, when Sir Norman Foster created the angled facade on the corners, all the leasing agents were like, no, no, no, this is wrong because you need the corner expose. And this is where the executives gonna sit. Nobody gonna like to sit on the angled facade. This are now the most desired places because it's different. It's special. It's it's unusual in our whole society is looking for individuality for the self expression, and you cannot do that in a generic office building anymore.

Atif Qadir  19:44

So the design timeline for 25 Cat was almost 10 years and plus or minus eight years a little faster oven. So two of the core aspects of what you've described in your design strategy is open office and While working, so over the past year, there's been an avalanche of negative opinions about both of those. And those applicability, the applicability of either of them to the future of office, what are your thoughts about Open Office and co working?

Matthias Hollwich  20:16

I think 25 Kent is actually something different. You can call it a flex acid, the building is so sturdy, and it's so dimensioned beyond the 14 feet floor to floor, it's actually 15 Eight, and the columns and the lease span, you can do anything with it. Right? You can, you can, we just had beyond the streets, a big art exhibition, so turned into a museum. But now you have also Smorgasburg moving in, it's going to be a big open market. So it's actually much more important now to think about buildings as assets for the future, that convertible into all kinds of different things. And we actually exploring right now in Germany, into topologies, where you can switch a office building into an apartment into a hotel. And we're also looking into parking turning into Office turning into hotel, and actually building already the facades with the logic of light and air for all the different asset classes. Because who knows, right? Who knows, if you still need all of these offices in 10 years, and maybe our apartment topology, you're gonna turn much more into CO living or into hotels, or they're gonna turn back into apartments, we don't know anymore. So we have to future proof our buildings through kind of sturdiness and flexibility. But that doesn't mean that they need to become generic, they just need to become so independent, that they can live with these different topologies.

Atif Qadir  21:49

So the idea being that it's not just about buildings that have mixed uses, at one given time, it's about the ability for the building to change over time as well to have multiple uses.

Matthias Hollwich  21:59

And we look into warehouses to change right in the became from logistics suddenly into offices and then into apartments. So that is, for me much more the future than these kind of very typical, optimized, single topologies that are totally outdated today.

Atif Qadir  22:17

So let's talk about the team that was necessary in order to execute on this design. So your team included Robert May Brad angles min Andrew McBride, Adam Hostetler, Valentina, Valentina Amelie, Gregory Nakata and Matthew Hoffman, I apologize if I missed anybody. But how did you feel? I'm sure there are many more. How did you organize your team?

Matthias Hollwich  22:38

So for the team, I mean, the office was also evolving, which is interesting, and but what became more and more important for us is that it there's always like one portion of a team, that's incredible discipline to always understand everything technical, anything that our standards so that we know, but we have to break. And then there's another team who can just play mindlessly by not knowing these kind of things. And then at some point, we bring them together. And it's very painful. And that's kind of the dimetric, between the creative and the rational, that you can see in every one of our buildings. And, and you'll see then people in the team to find a place or sometimes also to switch the places. But there's some people who just stick in the office, many of them have moved on and actually having their own careers. And it's actually exciting to see also people to grow beyond our firm. But then credit to Robert May, he was actually my student. Many years ago, he came to Hakan as his first job. And he's since he's there ever since. So they're never left, never left. And he probably has touched every one of our buildings since he's in the office. And he basically act as kind of a lead designer and design director on many of these projects.

Atif Qadir  23:58

So from I think that's a testament to the quality of your firm. And its focus on developing talent, but it sounds like the the values that you have are about having the design be something that's not necessarily owned by you, the principal, but something much broader, which is actually, I think, relatively unusual in our industry. Could you talk about some more of the values that you you focus on when when leading and developing teams?

Matthias Hollwich  24:24

Yeah, I think it goes within our team, but also even beyond the team. I think we're one of the very few firms who actually come to the first meeting was 10 different schemes and drawings. And then we give our client Sharpies and say like, by the way, anything you want to change or what you want to do different, just draw it up and show us and tell us and even at the University of Pennsylvania, where we did the penetration Center, which is our Innovation Center, and it's it used to be at least one of the most conservative real estate departments on the planet, I would say And we used to have the Red Bull. And then put all of these drawings, 10 of the different schemes on the wall and asked everyone to draw and give us ideas. And then we gave them dots and everyone gave us like red dots and green dots. And with that, it was an incredible experience where you learn so quickly from your client, what where they think the journey could go, you empower them to become co designers. And in the end, you actually don't know anymore who created it. But it's also with this, it's almost like rapid prototyping, more product ideas. Or let's say we like feedback research as a design process. And we do that within our team internally. And we do that also with our clients. And it's an awesome experience. You let down the guards, and you figure out what's the best for project together.

Atif Qadir  25:52

And it sounds like you would have created allies amongst your client in doing that, because those people that took the Sharpie, and those red dots and now have ownership for that, that design that they they helped to evolve.

Matthias Hollwich  26:04

Absolutely. And that penetration. The funnest part was really at the toughest moments when you do Value Engineering. Everyone was behind the design. And even our client could answer their own questions. They were like, No, we have to save some money here and there. But they were like, No, we know what you want. This one we cannot touch here we can touch. And then. And then even like moments where it was like one design element, which was an existing stair tower, on top of the roof. For us, it was very important. It goes away. And N Pompadour, the head of real estate said basically like, No, we have to save the $30,000 it stays in a normal, here's going to be painful. And I accepted it for like 10 minutes. And then when I had a chance I re addressed it again. I actually offered $15,000 of my own money to take it down if in pompadour would have matched it. And I never have seen her speechless. But she rebooted after one minute and she took it down. She paid for it. But I owed her for the rest of my life. But really, but that's kind of the relationship you build with the client when you do this kind of open workshops,

Atif Qadir  27:16

this interactive process. So besides your own internal team, there's a co design partner, Gensler, could you talk about how that relationship worked?

Matthias Hollwich  27:26

Yeah, so what we typically do, which is extremely successful. Normally architects would they tend to do a schematic design, design, development, and then as a design architect, you hand over your drawings, and then somebody else does his drawings, the architect of record exactly what we like to do, we like to bring the architect of record or the local partner very, very early into the design, so that they already have the emotional connection, we also empower them to, of course, become co designers with us. And it's a very, very smooth transition. For 25, Kent, it was a little bit different, because we started as design architects, and then against the took over. And then they basically doing design development, develop the project further. And the beauty was that our design was basically done. And it's a, when you think about it, from the principles, it's a very, very simple building. So they were able to execute on our vision perfectly, until the very end, even that we were not very involved in the later phases, which now for every other project, and we were very young firm at that time. For any other project. Now we have more control later. But in this case, it worked out perfectly because they could execute on our vision. So clearly.

Atif Qadir  28:47

So would you say that the integrity of your original design remained throughout?

Matthias Hollwich  28:52

Yes, there's one detail, which I will not tell you what it is. Perhaps the light fixtures, know something. Maybe just one more detail where every every time I pass through the building, I cringe and I'm like, but it's fine.

Atif Qadir  29:13

It'll be done about that.

Matthias Hollwich  29:15

I made my piece and also just for the records. When clients later on change things on the building. I'm fine with it, because buildings have to have the life on their own. And I think the real authorship is and the people who are using it. Right.

Atif Qadir  29:32

So conversations at Michael Graves is hosted by Michael Graves architecture and design, a world renowned firm that has been serving clients worldwide for 55 years from their offices in Princeton, New Jersey, New York City and Washington DC. They provide planning architecture, interior design and graphic design services for many different building types from hotels and resorts to office buildings, cultural and educational facilities, housing how Healthcare and civic structures all are part of their repertoire. With hundreds of awards for design excellence, it's obvious that they care deeply about their profession, and are keen to share their ideas widely. So we'll switch over more to the business side. When I spoke to Marianne Gilmartin, recently about Brooklyn, she explained about how difficult it is to get an Office tenant in Manhattan to cross the bridge. Besides 25, can't there's Doc 72 by Boston properties and routed nearby? Who do you think is going to tenant these outer borough office buildings? And where are they coming? If not from Manhattan?

Matthias Hollwich  30:41

Yeah, so the basically, the base premise is that most people live in Brooklyn, who the hipsters the creatives and the innovators, and you should go where the people are. And I think that is what a lot of companies still are hesitant about. Because they think more about the image of Manhattan, they may think more about the clients who they need to basically serve in the buildings, and they're just hoping to the plane, the know where it goes. And Manhattan, it's an easy choice. But where, everywhere, right now, the movements are going to its to its serving the people who work for you. Because that is the value that you have in your company, the human capital, the human capital. And by understanding that the human capital is right now in Williamsburg, and Bushwick in Brooklyn, or now also queens in the Bronx, right? It's happening right now. And that is where other outer boroughs besides Oh, yeah. It's cooking, it's happening. That is where now that investments have to happen from these firms. And it's just a matter of time now that they're gonna understand and really jump over over the river.

Atif Qadir  31:56

So it sounds like you think that that's not too big of a of a distance across eventually Manhattan tenants will come? Because the realization of the talent they want to they want to attract and retain.

Matthias Hollwich  32:08

Yeah, the I've seen it already was all for example, the hotels are popping up left and right. And my clients now always asking me, by the way, where should I stay when they come from Germany? And I'm always like, Okay, you have like a couple of cool hotels in Manhattan and a couple of cool ones right now in Brooklyn. Now we'll go to Brooklyn. And they're from Germany, right. So normally what's always think they would go to Manhattan first, but they already made the jump, they understand that this is where the much cooler bars, restaurants and events are. And that's where they want to be.

Atif Qadir  32:41

So your perspective is that it's an eventuality, as opposed to a conditional. So the goal of 25, Kent is to have studios based out of the building with shops on the ground floor, where tenants can sell the products that they've been manufacturing that has influenced the tenanting for the project so far, do you feel that this will become increasingly common in office environments around New York City, as opposed to the current service relationship where you'll have an Office tenant above, and then retail serving those, those tenants below, like a cafe or a coffee shop?

Matthias Hollwich  33:13

Yeah, I think you'll see it in office use but also very strongly, right now in residential use. We call it actually retail as a manatee. So when you want to create, on curate basically everything in the building to serve the identity, and you mix in the building. And right now, apartment buildings still do it on the military floor. And very often, it just looks pretty, but nobody ever uses it. Right. And so some buildings have managed to make that more functioning. And I think this is where the journey is going. But the return is part of that amenity. And this is how we have to understand that you have to make sure that it fits everything together as an added benefit. And maybe you don't make as much money off the retail as you would hope to make. But I think retail is changing so drastically anyway. So everyone should be happy to make some money in retail space.

Atif Qadir  34:12

So again, after success,

Matthias Hollwich  34:15

yeah, or that's a base thinking differently about so I sought for example, in one smart developer in New Jersey. What he always does is he gives the rent away for the retail space for the first three to five years. And always find intrapreneurs in the neighborhoods and give them opportunities. And then suddenly you have a cupcake store of like a hobby chef would always just wanted to do it and said like no yes, your business opportunity and real estate for free for a couple of years. If you make money or take a percentage, and suddenly the person is incredible personnel. It goes above and beyond to build a business and there are actually many of these little rich Tell spaces became very successful ventures beyond the building, but then even the gratefulness of the people who got this opportunity resonates out, above and beyond the building. And so there's a that is the most extreme of a curation, you can do the softer and maybe not that. That risky in a way. But it's the same principles that you have to apply for your buildings at this point.

Atif Qadir  35:27

So what it sounds like is that it's a growth beyond the traditional real estate business model of what can I make per square foot and combining that more with the venture capital model? To understand what can I make in the long term, not just the short term? Is that correct?

Matthias Hollwich  35:44

Yeah. And also, if you have, let's say, 20,000 square feet of retail, but you have 480,000 square foot of office, and you maybe discount your retail, and you get a little bit more money on the office, the money that the balance sheet should work.

Atif Qadir  36:02

So about non traditional uses. Brooklyn, flea and Smorgasburg started as tenants at 25 Can't just this weekend, could you explain who they are? And why there are 25 cat?

Matthias Hollwich  36:15

Yeah, I think, first of all, 25 African is such a sturdy building, that anything can happen. And from the museum before from the offices, Office tenants now to a market Smorgasburg, which is basically an outdoor market in Brooklyn, which is renowned world renowned at this point, the DNA of the building offers like such a tenant can move in. And I believe it's a temporary use for the winter. And but that's where the building's really well thought through just to allow that to happen.

Atif Qadir  36:53

So it's that theme? How can the building and its tendency evolve and change over time to create this really dynamic places for people to want to come shop and work as well?

Matthias Hollwich  37:05

Yeah, and it's for the owner, right now, it's all about placemaking, about introducing the building to the largest audience possible, so that there's an excitement so that when the tenants are all fixed, it has its purpose as a potential cure in the building. Because Sure, you could get a lot of tenants just to move in, but it's not the point to get anyone to be the one who makes sure.

Atif Qadir  37:34

So from that perspective, 25 Kent is a next generation workplace for the next generation of leaders and a social campus for innovators, startup founders, and tech leaders, those the words that are used to describe the building, how do you think that it'll be possible to measure the building design was able to live up to those ideals,

Matthias Hollwich  37:56

that's going to be the future will tell. But as an example, for example, innovation, the university is very, I would say, reflective on the successes of the building. And they actually measuring the venture capital the companies have raised, they measure how many people have visited, what kind of events are happening, and the building actually superseded their expectation by a multi fold. And by having seen that is 60,000 square foot building can do that far away from the campus from the University of Pennsylvania, you can see that very easily translated to a 500,000 square foot office close to Manhattan in Williamsburg, where everything is happening right now in terms of the creative energy of the city.

Atif Qadir  38:50

So that would be grammatically correct to say that a lot of what the success of her design is is about understanding of building as branding and creating on forever unforgettable architecture.

Matthias Hollwich  39:03

Yeah. And the branding needs to come out of the building itself, right, it's very easy to splash. There's a codename and create good slogans. But what's exciting about it is that it actually did the name and the image and also the inclusion into the neighborhood. In itself. It's a brand that you like, the name can't come in. It's like, the worst name. But it works, right? Because it's just the building. But the the image of the building speaks for itself, and that is for us to kind of the power of a architecture that is exactly how you mentioned. For me now the unfunded liability that's coming in, has different elements that have to play together to make that happen, and that building really stands for it.

Atif Qadir  39:58

Okay, let's go A bird's eye view. What does 25 cat mean to you personally as the architect? And what does it mean to you in the progression of your career?

Matthias Hollwich  40:12

So for me, the most exciting moment is when a building is done and people embrace it. And you see people are happy, and maybe meet new friends make new connections, or if they work there, they have a fulfilling life in a work environment. And that's what I see was 25. Can I saw people just walking by and taking their selfies, or talking to the people passing by in this building? Let's check it out. Right. And they're passing through the went into the beyond the street exhibition. And you see, like, the hashtags just go crazy, just by with people embracing already what's happening in the building. And so this is, for me, really, the moment of satisfaction, of course, the like moments of excitement in the process, right? When you figured out how the building gonna look like it's an amazing moment, right, because you create something that nobody ever has thought about it before. And some suddenly, you see it in front of you. Now, of course, not five more years to go on until it's really built in experience for other people. So that's, that's number one. Now, from here on, I see that now, finally, people can go into a building and see what I have talked about for so many years. And it's basically a proof of concept. And this is also an incredible business development tool. So I'm seeing right now a lot of people having already used the image of 25 Kent in the deck. And sometimes the mistake, of course, our partner firm as originator and the hiring Gensler, and now is like, Hey, can you do the building? Again, it's like, somebody else had the idea first, right. So you would maybe come by us and Kinzler to create the next of kin. Sure, but, but we have a lot of people now approaching us. And it's helpful, of course, to have realized such a building on such a dimension. And if it's this, the meaning of the building.

Atif Qadir  42:14

That's great. So we have time for a few questions from the audience.

Matthias Hollwich  42:19

Questions. Audience?

42:26

Do you think that the development of domino, the domino site was helped to catalyze some of the market in Brooklyn that perhaps helped your project go through Europe?

Matthias Hollwich  42:38

Yeah, so I don't know how much I can tell you about how much it helped or didn't help him, right. Because as much I recall, but I may be mistaken. There was a grand vision that was presented to the city. And as soon as they went through you, that couple of things could change, because now they had a lot of freedom to change things because we zoned in the New York gives you some kind of a lot of freedom, as soon as it's done. So our process was watched much more carefully that our design was built into the rezoning text. So it was redesigned descriptive, which for me as an architect is awesome, but because it gives a lot of security in so that the design is being realized based on our vision. But I believe it costs like couple of months, the Process Time, which normally is very costly and difficult, of course, for a client. So yeah, I don't think that really helped that much because of the timing, but it may be helped, that the design state actually more true to its intention. But now 25k is helping a lot of other people and to actually rezone things because of its embrace of from the neighborhood and also the city. I think the city is very proud of it. Awesome, well, questions.

44:10

When you're evaluating a project to go no go. How do you what are your criteria for determining whether or not you're going to pursue a project?

Matthias Hollwich  44:19

We get some very, very good advice for early. Two things have to come together from three things, fame, fun, and fortunately, all three have never come together. Except fun. Maybe fame. Fortune is urgently important. No, but these are the principles right? So if it's just about fortune, it's not worth it. Right? Because it's not going to be a satisfying experience. And I think as an architect, we don't go into this profession to become rich because it's impossible. But if we go into this profession because of our passion, and about The purpose that we believe in architecture to create something important for people or questions

Atif Qadir  45:12

so, thank you so much for joining us, Matias.

Matthias Hollwich  45:16

Thank you for having me. Absolutely.

Atif Qadir  45:18

Next month, we'll be interviewing Samer who Nene, the founder and partner of any group development, construction and architecture firm based in New York, New Jersey. Their historic renovation projects have been covered by everyone from the Wall Street Journal to Vogue magazine. My name is Ahmed gobbler, and this has been conversations at Michael Graves. Thank you. Thank you